Freethought & Rationalism Archive

figuer · 08-01-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Among the Semites of Western Asia the king, in a time of national danger, sometimes gave his own son to die as a sacrifice for the people. Thus Philo of Byblus, in his work on the Jews, says: 'It was an ancient custom in a crisis of great danger that the ruler of a city or nation should give his beloved son to die for the whole people, as a ransom offered to the avenging demons; and the children thus offered were slain with mystic rites. So Cronus, whom the Phoenicians call Israel, being king of the land and having an only-begotten son called Jeoud (for in the Phoenician tongue Jeoud signifies "only begotten"), dressed him in royal robes and sacrificed him upon an altar in a time of war, when the country was in great danger from the enemy.' When the king of Moab was besieged by the Israelites and hard beset, he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.

James Frazer - The Golden Bough (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Could this ancient custom be the origin of the Christ Myth??

Clivedurdle · 08-01-2008, 12:21 PM

Just thought I would spread a little apoplexy!

Quote:

Cronus (Ancient Greek Κρόνος, Krónos), also called Cronos or Kronos, was the leader and the youngest of the first generation of Titans, divine descendants of Gaia, the earth, and Uranus, the sky. He overthrew his father, Uranus, and ruled during the mythological Golden Age, until he was overthrown by his own son, Zeus. He was not imprisoned in the depths of the underworld, Tartarus, like most other Titans, but instead fled.

As a result of his association with the bountiful and virtuous Golden Age, Cronus was worshiped as a harvest deity, overseeing crops such as grains, nature, agriculture, and the progression of time in relation to humans in general. He was usually depicted with a sickle, which he used to harvest crops and which was also the weapon he used to castrate and depose Uranus. In Athens, on the twelfth day of every month (Hekatombaion), a festival called Kronia was held in honor of Cronus to celebrate the harvest. Cronus was also identified in classical antiquity with the Roman deity Saturn.

The etymology of the name is obscure. It may be related to "horned", suggesting a possible connection with the ancient Indian demon Kroni or the Levantine deity El. In the Alexandrian and Renaissance periods there was some confusion with the word χρόνος, Chronos, meaning time.

In Greek mythology and early myths
In ancient Greek myths, Cronus envied the power of his father and the ruler of the universe, Uranus. Uranus drew the enmity of Cronus' mother, Gaia, when he hid the gigantic youngest children of Gaia, the hundred-armed Hecatonchires and one-eyed Cyclopes, in Tartarus, so that they would not see the light. Gaia created a great sickle and gathered together Cronus and his brothers to persuade them to kill Uranus. Only Cronus was willing to do the deed, so Gaia gave him the sickle and placed him in ambush. When Uranus met with Gaia, Cronus attacked Uranus with the sickle by cutting off his genitals, castrating him and casting the severed member into the sea. From the blood (or, by a few accounts, semen) that spilled out from Uranus and fell upon the earth, the Gigantes, Erinyes, and Meliae were produced. From the member that was cast into the sea, Aphrodite later emerged. For this, Uranus threatened vengeance and called his sons titenes ("straining ones") for overstepping their boundaries and daring to commit such an act, and this is the source of the name Titan.

In an alternate version of this myth, a more benevolent Cronus overthrew the wicked serpentine Titan Ophion. In doing so, he released the world from bondage and for a time ruled it justly.

After dispatching Uranus, Cronus re-imprisoned the Hecatonchires, the Gigantes, and the Cyclopes and set the dragon Campe to guard them. He and Rhea took the throne of the world as King and Queen. This period of Cronus' rule was called the Golden Age, as the people of the time had no need for laws or rules; everyone did the right thing, and immorality was absent.

Cronus learned from Gaia and Uranus that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, just as he had overthrown his father. As a result, although he sired the gods Demeter, Hera, Hades, and Hestia, by Rhea, he swallowed them all as soon as they were born to preempt the prophecy. When the fifth and six children were born, Poseidon and Zeus, Rhea sought Gaia to devise a plan to save them and to eventually get retribution on Cronus for his acts against his father and children. Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete, and handed Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, also known as the Omphalos Stone, which he promptly swallowed, thinking that it is his son. The same happened with Poseidon, though Cronus swallowed a goat as opposed to a rock, thinking it to be his son.

Rhea kept Zeus hidden in a cave on Mount Ida, Crete. According to some versions of the story, he was then raised by a goat named Amalthea, while a company of Kouretes, armored male dancers, shouted and clapped their hands to make enough noise to mask the baby's cries from Cronus. Other versions of the myth have Zeus raised by the nymph Adamanthea, who hid Zeus by dangling him by a rope from a tree so that he was suspended between the earth, the sea, and the sky, all of which were ruled by his father, Cronus. Still other versions of the tale say that Zeus was raised by his grandmother, Gaia.

Once he had grown up, Zeus used a poison given to him by Gaia to force Cronus to vomit up the contents of his stomach in reverse order: first the stone, which was set down at Pytho under the glens of Mount Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, then the goat, and then his two brothers and three sisters. In other versions of the tale, Metis gave Cronus an emetic to force him to disgorge the children, or Zeus cut Cronus' stomach open. After freeing his siblings, Zeus released the Gigantes, the Hecatonchires, and the Cyclopes, who forged for him his thunderbolts. In a vast war called the Titanomachy, Zeus and his brothers and sisters, with the help of the Gigantes, Hecatonchires, and Cyclopes, overthrew Cronus and the other Titans. Afterwards, many of the Titans were confined in Tartarus. Some Titans were not banished to Tartarus. Atlas, Cronus, Epimetheus, Metis, Menoetius, Oceanus and Prometheus are examples of Titans who were not imprisoned in Tartarus following the Titanomachy. Gaia sired the monster Typhon to claim revenge for the imprisoned Titans, though Zeus was victorious.

Other children Cronus is reputed to have had include Chiron, by Philyra, and Eris, by Nyx.

An earlier version of Cronus, from before worship of Zeus became popular, is considered to be connected to the Semitic deity Ba`al Hammon. The baby-eating myth of Cronos is considered to derive from such early religions, as Ba`al Hammon was sometimes worshiped as Moloch, whose cult involved child sacrifice by burning within a statue of Ba`al Hammon.

The account ascribed by Eusebius to the semi-legendary pre-Trojan War Phoenician historian, Sanchuniathon, indicates that he was originally a Canaanite ruler who founded Byblos and was subsequently deified. This version gives his alternate name as Elus or Ilus, and states that in the 32nd year of his reign, he castrated, slew and deified his father Epigeius or Autochthon "whom they afterwards called Uranus". It further states that after ships were invented, Cronus, visiting the 'inhabitable world', bequeathed Attica to his own daughter Athena, and Egypt to Thoth the son of Misor and inventor of writing.

Cronos is again mentioned in the Sibylline Oracles, particularly book three, which makes Cronos, 'Titan' and Iapetus, the three sons of Uranus and Gaia, each to receive a third division of the Earth, and Cronos is made king over all. After the death of Uranus, Titan's sons attempt to destroy Cronos' and Rhea's male offspring as soon as they are born, but at Dodona, Rhea secretly bears her sons Zeus, Poseidon and Hades and sends them to Phrygia to be raised in the care of three Cretans. Upon learning this, sixty of Titan's men then imprison Cronos and Rhea, causing the sons of Cronos to declare and fight the first of all wars against them.

In Roman mythology and later culture
While the Greeks considered Cronus a force of chaos along with disorder, believing that the Olympian gods had brought an era of peace and order by seizing power from the crude and malicious Titans, the Romans had a more positive view of the deity. Although the Roman deity Saturn was conflated heavily with Cronus, the Romans favored Saturn much more than the Greeks did Cronus. While Cronus was considered a cruel and tempestuous deity to the Greeks, his nature under Roman influence became more innocuous, with his association with the Golden Age eventually causing him to become the god of "human time", i.e., calendars, seasons, and harvests—not to be confused with Chronos, the unrelated embodiment of time in general. While the Greeks largely neglected Cronus, considering him a mere intermediary stage between Uranus and Zeus, he was a larger aspect of Roman mythology and religion; Saturnalia was a festival dedicated in his honor, and at least one temple to Saturn existed in the early Roman Kingdom.

It is important to note that due to the numerous cities in ancient and classic times which would exist in isolation, numerous myths were developed and adopted to the local region. As technology allowed cultures of common descent to rejoin the people made accommodations to create a unified understanding of the universe. It should also be noted that this is not restrained to Greco-Roman culture. Historical documents reveal this to be a common event affecting most religions.

As a result of Cronus' importance to the Romans, his Roman variant, Saturn, has had a large influence on Western culture. In accordance with the Near Eastern tradition, the seventh day of the Judaeo-Christian week was also called in Latin Dies Saturni ("Day of Saturn"), which in turn was adapted and became the source of the English word Saturday. In astronomy, the planet Saturn is called so because of Roman influence. It was considered the seventh and outermost of the seven heavenly objects that are visible with the naked eye.

In some sects of Hinduism, Kroni is a primordial manifestation of evil.

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Saturn was appreciated Rome as an agriculture god. People liked his festival alot. It's the reason Christmas is December 25th.

The Latins were Indo-Europeans, though. I don't see how they could have been influenced by the Semitic deities. They fought the Punic Wars against Carthage.

Roman mythology was not influenced by Christian beliefs. It was the other way around. Nearly the entire world at the time was influenced by Greco-Roman culture. The Romans were an occupying force in Israel around the (supposed) time of Christ. It would be inevitable that the upstart Christian religion was heavily influenced by both Roman mythology and Greek especially the Mithrais story but also resurrection gods such as Dionysis and Adonis with even some Egyptian thrown in to the pot in the form of Osiris.

http://wyldwytch.com/weavings/forums...=0&#entry95004

Toto · 08-01-2008, 12:22 PM

We have had some discussion of the idea of sacrificing a son being related to the Abraham and Isaac story. This just seems to generalize the theme.

Philo_of_Byblos

gstafleu · 08-01-2008, 12:46 PM

You always have to be a bit careful with Frazier, as it does not always seem to be clear how reliable his sources were. I doubt if this bit, if accurate, was the whole basis for the Jesus story. It could be the basis for a bit of it, I'm particularly thinking of the crown of thorns and purple robe episode.

Gerard Stafleu

andrewcriddle · 08-01-2008, 02:07 PM

The passage from Philo of Byblus as quoted by Eusebius is here
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu...e_04_book4.htm

Quote:

[PHILO BYBLIUS] 'It was a custom of the ancients in the great crises of danger for the rulers of a city or nation, in order to avert the general destruction, to give up the most beloved of their children for sacrifice as a ransom to the avenging daemons: and those who were so given up were slain with mystic rites. Kronos, therefore, whom the Phoenicians call El, who was king of the country, and subsequently, after his decease, was deified and changed into the star Saturn, had by a nymph of the same country called Anobret an only-begotten son (whom on this account they called Jeiid, the only-begotten being still so called among the Phoenicians); and when extreme dangers from war had befallen the country, he arrayed his son in royal apparel, and prepared an altar and sacrificed him.'

Andrew Criddle

Newfie · 08-01-2008, 02:17 PM

It may have been a common motif for kings and gods to sacrifice their children for the greater good, which explains why audiences at that time would not have been repelled by the story of Abraham and Issac, or even God and Jesus. It may, however, have served more to illustrate the dedication of the god or king to his people. Who would sacrifice their own child for the benefit of society, but a leader or god completely dedicated to their people?

Alas, this degree of dedication is sadly absent from our leaders today, few of whom would ever consider sending their children in harm’s way for the benefit of the people. How many politicians have kids in the military after all?

Clivedurdle · 08-01-2008, 02:17 PM

Looks like Frazer historicised a myth!

mountainman · 08-01-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figuer

Quote:

Among the Semites of Western Asia the king, in a time of national danger, sometimes gave his own son to die as a sacrifice for the people. Thus Philo of Byblus, in his work on the Jews, says: 'It was an ancient custom in a crisis of great danger that the ruler of a city or nation should give his beloved son to die for the whole people, as a ransom offered to the avenging demons; and the children thus offered were slain with mystic rites. So Cronus, whom the Phoenicians call Israel, being king of the land and having an only-begotten son called Jeoud (for in the Phoenician tongue Jeoud signifies "only begotten"), dressed him in royal robes and sacrificed him upon an altar in a time of war, when the country was in great danger from the enemy.' When the king of Moab was besieged by the Israelites and hard beset, he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.

James Frazer - The Golden Bough (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Could this ancient custom be the origin of the Christ Myth??

What about Crispus c.325 CE?

Best wishes,

Pete

spamandham · 08-01-2008, 11:10 PM

One thing we can say with reasonable certainty, is that the idea of a god sacrificing his son could not have been introduced in a radical fashion. I think the same can be said for ideas such as resurrection, sacrificial eating of the body/blood, miracle, etc. These ideas had to have evolved from earlier ideas, they could not be introduced whole cloth.

This implies that the sacrificial son idea had earlier origins. In the case of Christianity, the obvious precursor is Abraham, and maybe Jephthah to a lesser degree. But then, what is the precursor for that idea in Judaism?

figuer · 08-02-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

One thing we can say with reasonable certainty, is that the idea of a god sacrificing his son could not have been introduced in a radical fashion. I think the same can be said for ideas such as resurrection, sacrificial eating of the body/blood, miracle, etc. These ideas had to have evolved from earlier ideas, they could not be introduced whole cloth. This implies that the sacrificial son idea had earlier origins. In the case of Christianity, the obvious precursor is Abraham, and maybe Jephthah to a lesser degree. But then, what is the precursor for that idea in Judaism?

Judaism was a particular development within the various caananite/semitic religions, which shared similar mythological components and beliefs. These contained sacrificial gods like Adonis and Atis. Judaism/Christianity also developed in contact with Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Persian and Greco-Latin religion/mythology, where god-men and semi-divine heroes are staples. Such a figure as Alexander the Great, acclaimed as living god, putative son of Zeus, who died at 32, could easily have contributed to the development of the Christ myth.

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08-01-2008, 12:22 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	We have had some discussion of the idea of sacrificing a son being related to the Abraham and Isaac story. This just seems to generalize the theme. Philo_of_Byblos

08-01-2008, 12:46 PM	#4
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	You always have to be a bit careful with Frazier, as it does not always seem to be clear how reliable his sources were. I doubt if this bit, if accurate, was the whole basis for the Jesus story. It could be the basis for a bit of it, I'm particularly thinking of the crown of thorns and purple robe episode. Gerard Stafleu

08-01-2008, 02:17 PM	#6
Newfie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,457	It may have been a common motif for kings and gods to sacrifice their children for the greater good, which explains why audiences at that time would not have been repelled by the story of Abraham and Issac, or even God and Jesus. It may, however, have served more to illustrate the dedication of the god or king to his people. Who would sacrifice their own child for the benefit of society, but a leader or god completely dedicated to their people? Alas, this degree of dedication is sadly absent from our leaders today, few of whom would ever consider sending their children in harm’s way for the benefit of the people. How many politicians have kids in the military after all?

08-01-2008, 02:17 PM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Looks like Frazer historicised a myth!

08-01-2008, 11:10 PM	#9
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	One thing we can say with reasonable certainty, is that the idea of a god sacrificing his son could not have been introduced in a radical fashion. I think the same can be said for ideas such as resurrection, sacrificial eating of the body/blood, miracle, etc. These ideas had to have evolved from earlier ideas, they could not be introduced whole cloth. This implies that the sacrificial son idea had earlier origins. In the case of Christianity, the obvious precursor is Abraham, and maybe Jephthah to a lesser degree. But then, what is the precursor for that idea in Judaism?

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