Stumpjumper

Er...

Someone doing this: "one being in the universe had abilities that are far beyond the abilities of any human" does not prove that that being is God.

How do you know that the being was not just an advanced alien species?


Again. How do you know that God is not doing everything possible "in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven"?

How do people go to heaven?

Perhaps God might have something to say about your opinion of how people get to heaven....

So now you want everyone healed from physical ailments. What if that suffering is redemptive and some how part of God's way of helping some find inner peace and salvation?

Wouldn't your now demand of the immediate healing of people then be in conflict with your previous demand from God?

Maybe because things like heaven and hell are part of that category of things that Augustine termed "doubtful matters" when he said: "In essentials; unity, in doubtful matters; liberty, in all things; charity." ~ Augustine

Heaven and hell have always been considered part of the mystery of Christian faith...

Again. How do you know "God has not nearly done everything..." If you don't know what heaven and hell are, and for that metter who goes to hell, then I don't think you are in a position to make such statements.

Hey. It's your argument. I'm not trying to get anywhere and it's clear to me it's you who are stuck in a diversionary hole...

show_no_mercy

There was a miracle in my Cheerios this morning. I was contemplating the ramifications of the problem of induction, epistemological presuppositionalism, and ontological empiricism when God plainly spelled out "Ooooo!!" in my cereal bowl.

I have since converted to Christianity.

Johnny Skeptic

It doesn’t matter how people get to heaven. The point is that God could easily do additional things that would convince more people to become Christians. Many humans are much more convinced by tangible evidence than they are by spiritual evidence. Jesus supposedly used lots of tangible evidence. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

In the preceding Scriptures, Jesus’ miracles confirmed his words. His words did not confirm his miracles.

There are also a number of other miracles that the texts say that Jesus performed. The texts also say that Jesus performed many miracles that were not recorded.

Even after the Holy Spirit came to the church, in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says “So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.” The KJV translates “miraculous signs and wonder” are “miracles”. The texts say elsewhere in the book of Acts that some of those miracles were tangible miracles.

Today, people still place great emphasis upon good physical health. Christian doctors are trying to prevent and cure all diseases. There is much rejoicing by everyone when a cure or prevention is found for a disease. I am not aware that any Christians consider trying to prevent and cure all diseases to be counterproductive. Healing people is a good thing. God should do more of it. ANY supposedly supernatural being who showed and healed all of the sick people in the world would immediately attract a large following, and could easily found what would quickly become the largest religion in the world if he wanted to.

It all gets down to trust. Without more information that I have at this time, I will not trust any being who says that killing people is wrong, but hypocritically kills people himself, who makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11, punishes people for sins that their grandparents committed, reference Exodus 20:5, told Jews to kill any Jew who kills a Jew, but told Jews to only punish a Jew who kills a slave, reference the Old Testament, killed Ananias and Saphira over money, reference the New Testament, kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout and faithful followers, and babies, and innocent animals, allowed hundreds of millions and frequently distributes tangible benefits to those who are not in greatest need, while frequently withholding tangible benefits from those who are in greatest need, giving many people the impression that God indiscriminately distributes tangible benefits without any regard whatsoever for a person’s worldview.

Trust must be EARNED, not merely DECLARED in ancient texts. The simple truth is that there is not any particular tangible blessing that a Christian can expect to receive from God. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Christians have died of starvation. Would you call food a necessity of life?

The actions and allowances of the God of the Bible indicate that if he exists, at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. No mentally competent being helps AND kills people, including some of his most devout followers, and babies, and innocent animals.

Do you have excellent evidence that God told the truth when he (supposedly) said that Christians will go to heaven? Luke 10:25-28 say "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Logically, a commitment like that would not be possible without excellent evidence that it is much more probable that God is not a liar than that he is a liar. You do not have anywhere near that kind of evidence. If God is a liar, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, it would be impossible for anyone to discover that he is a liar with a reasonable degree of certainty if he did not want anyone to know that he is a liar. One of the perks of being omnipotent and omniscient is that you can accomplish whatever you wish to accomplish. You believe the powerful good and evil supernatural beings exist. If they do exist, your problem is that you do not know which group is most powerful, which group tells the truth, and which groups tell lies.

Regardless of what heaven is, or how a person gets there, there is not sufficient evidence that the Bible tells the truth about heaven, and about a lot of other issues that I could bring up.

If the God of the Bible exists, he might have answers to a lot of questions that rational minded and fair minded people would accept, but based upon the information that we now have, rational minded and fair minded people have only two choices, to conclude that the God of the Bible does not exist, or that if he does exist, his character is suspect, and he must be rejected.

aa5874

Isn't that the description for Christianity?

Stumpjumper

Good lord, Johnny. Less words, more dialogue


I would object with your implication that only professing Christians (ie people who are Baptised, believe, and live a good moral life) are saved.

It seems to me to be your implication and, although that might be a position of some Protestant fundamentalists, it is certainly not a monolithic Christian stance.


Jesus' miracles support and are inherently intertwined with his words... I think the words would stand on their own, however.

Well, those are some nicely cherry picked passages but I don't think you can not have it both ways. If you want to consider scripture an authority in regards to God and God's nature and actions then you must consider all of scripture authoritative.

Not just the passages that you think support your position. This, of course, means that these passages are also authoritative.

Micah 6:8
"O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Hosea 6:6
"For I [the Lord] desired mercy, and not sacrifice."

Matthew 5
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 7
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Matthew 26
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Luke 3:14
"Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely."

Hmm. Guessing your quotes are, what, better than mine

Or... That you base all of your judgements of God's character upon a poor and biased interpretation of the Bible and nothing else.

No reference or claim to love between each other. Something like this would do, btw:

1 John 4
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

No reference to humility, charity, or self-sacrifice.

No.

Just a bunch of cherry picked Bible passages and piss-poor exegesis to boot. I mean, at the least, just admit that you don't believe in God because you either choose not to or because you have no reason to believe.

At least I'd understand.

Your reasoning here is just elementary and internally inconsistent...

Johnny Skeptic

Why yes, that is why Jesus should show up for a lot more dialogue and a lot less dependence upon copies of copies of ancient texts that even Christians have killed each other over regarding differences in interpretation.

Please quote the Scriptures that you believe show who will be saved, and then we can discuss them.

Not according to the texts, at least in some cases. Consider the following Scriptures that I quoted in my previous post:

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Johnny: Those Scriptures agree with my position, not yours. If a supposedly supernatural being showed up and healed all of the sick people in the world, he would immediately attract a lot of followers. If he started a new religion, it would quickly become the largest religion in history. Humans have always placed great importance upon good health. Today, Christian doctors are trying to prevent and cure all diseases. Without a reasonable state of physical health, no one can enjoy the tangible pleasures of life. Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” Having enough food to eat is also an important tangible necessity of life. Matthew 15:32-38 say “Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.” I do not believe that those events happened. Do you believe that they did happen? Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Why should anyone believe that it was any different back then?

But what is Scripture? Do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? If so, where is your evidence? Do you have any evidence that the copies of ancient manuscripts that we have today accurately say what the originals said? Do you have any evidence how the Bible was originally put together, including how many disagreements there might have been over which writings to include in it?

Johnny: I am merciful. God is not merciful. He endorses eternal punishment without parole. I do not endorse eternal punishment without parole. If God does not endorse eternal punishment with parole, I trust that I will do better when I get my second chance in the next life.

Same as before.

I agree. I suggest that God practice what he preaches.

Same as before

Then God will perish because he sometimes kills some of his most devout and faithful followers, including babies, and innocent animals.

The Bible has falsely accused skeptics of being not worthy of going to heaven. Some non-Christians are much more loving, kind, generous, and moral than the typical Christian is. There is not any evidence at all that God is worthy except for the arbitrary opinions of some Bible writers.

All that we can do is consider that the Bible says, and what we see in the world around us. Many of God’s actions and allowances in the Bible, and in the world today, indicate that if he exists, at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. Exodus 4:11 says that God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb. Exodus 20:5 says that God punished people for sins that their grandparents committed. Today God frequently injures and kills some of his most devout followers with hurricanes, and babies, and innocent animals. While tangible benefits are frequently distributed to those who are not in greatest need, they are frequently withheld from those who are in greatest need. This indicates that tangible benefits are distributed at random according to the laws of physics, or that if a God exists, he has gone out of his way to make it look like tangible benefits are distributed at random according to the laws of physics.

So if a man murders 100 people, and is willing to die for 100 other people, I shouldn’t cherry pick his actions, right? If you can cherry pick, why can’t I cherry pick. ALL of any human’s, or any God’s actions and allowances, are fair game. Without considering ALL of a human’s, or a God’s actions, it would not be possible to make appropriate assessments regarding character. When a person is nominated to become a U.S. Supreme Court justice, there is much scrutiny regarding his past and present words and conduct. The good is weighed against the bad. Cherry picking is a necessary part of the process. I am not aware of anyone who opposes this policy. God refuses to ever show up and answer questions. The only questions that Jesus ever answered that were recorded were cherry picked by anonymous Gospel writers who never claimed to have seen Jesus perform a miracle, and never reported ANYTHING based upon first hand evidence.

Regarding love, many bi-polar and mentally incompetent people are loving some of the time, just like God is. Many loving non-Christians have much better values than God does. They would never endorse eternal punishment without parole. If they had the ability to heal people, they would heal all of the people that they were able to heal, just like Christian doctors try to do. They would protect people from murder and rape, just like Christian police officers try to do. Actions speak much stronger than words do. Actions best reveal the intent of the human heart, not beliefs. If you want to know what is in a non-Christian’s heart, consider his actions, not his words. If you want to know what is in God’s heart, consider his actions, not just his words, and don’t just consider the declarations of copies of ancient texts that were written by human proxies presuming to speak for God. Take a look around the world and consider what you see. Consider if the world today reveals the actions of a loving God regarding tangible evidence.

Do you have excellent evidence that God told the truth when he (supposedly) said that Christians will go to heaven? Luke 10:25-28 say "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Logically, a commitment like that would not be possible without excellent evidence that it is much more probable that God is not a liar than that he is a liar. You do not have anywhere near that kind of evidence. If God is a liar, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, it would be impossible for anyone to discover that he is a liar with a reasonable degree of certainty if he did not want anyone to know that he is a liar. One of the perks of being omnipotent and omniscient is that you can accomplish whatever you wish to accomplish. You believe the powerful good and evil supernatural beings exist. If they do exist, your problem is that you do not know which group is most powerful, which group tells the truth, and which groups tell lies.

Regardless of what heaven is, or how a person gets there, there is not sufficient evidence that the Bible tells the truth about heaven, and about a lot of other issues that I could bring up.

All that you have brought up are unsupported guesses and speculations that are based upon your emotional needs.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Stumpjumper: It is interesting to note that God is much less willing or able to have relationships with people who live in Muslim countries than from countries where Christianity is the predominant religion. This is exactly what rational minded people expect would be the case if God does not exist. When mere humans can frequently determine where God is able to have a relationship with people, there is a rat in the woodpile somewhere.

Stumpjumper

Why?

Don't Muslims have relationships with God?

Is God incapable of hearing a prayer from someone named Mohammed?

Maybe God likes diversity... Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and the sole mediator between God and man but that does not mean that Muslims, Hindus, or those that attend Bob Joe's Penguin Worship Palace are unable to have a relationship with God...

It just means that some Christian views of soteriology (and hence your position) is narrow and exclusive. There are other ways of looking at it...

Stumpjumper

Matthew 18:10-14
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

No. They show a portion of the overall message but they do not exclusively agree with your position. I said that Jesus' words and his miracles are connected but that his words would stand alone.

Do you need a miracle to accept the Beatitudes?

The Christian positin is that Jesus' miracles attest to who he was as God Incarnate.

It is also the position that the Incarnation was a unique and definitive revelation from God.

Why do you need another one? Don't you know enough about the miracles and about the Incarnation?

Do you think that God should personally appear to each and every person on earth so that's it's "fair"?

Seems a wee bit demanding to me...

Well... There's the rub. You don't believe that the events happened in the past but you want the chance to personally experience these events so you can make an informed decision.

What makes you think that a personal revelation between God and Johnny is something that you are "owed"?

Scripture is included in the Canonized Bible. I do not doubt that there may be other inspired writings that are indeed scripture that are not included in the Bible but I do know that what we have is sufficient.

I do not believe that the Bible is either errant or inerrant as those are modern categories that do not apply to inspired sacred texts...

Gotta go for now...

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

It would be just as fun seeing you try to prove:
1. God's not performing miracles.
2. Miracles are necessarily incompatible with the normal laws of nature.
3. That that which gives this world continuity and what makes it a new fresh wonder every time we look at it...is not the covenant faithfulness and on-going work of God in consumating Christ's preeminence as history progresses, but rather just the accidental consequence of a cosmic development of a chance formation from beginning matter.