Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jehanne · 11-02-2004, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

According to the original languages of the Bible, both animals and humans ARE souls, while the "spirit" (that which gives a soul life) is breath.

For more on the apparent misconceptions of "hell" (Hades/Sheol, or the grave) and Gehenna see the page at http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/booklets/heavenhell/soul.html. You may note that the ones who "have their part in the lake of fire (Gehenna)" are to be destroyed (rather than punished forever) in this fire (the second, and final death).

The concept of Hell has varied over the centuries both within and outside the Catholic Church, which only shows that it is a “human-made�? concept as opposed to a “divine�? one. Again, “pink unicorns�? reign… :notworthy

Saint Thomas Aquinas deals with the question of the “soul�? at length in the Summa. (But, note Thomas’ teaching on Adam!):

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

Regards,

Don

P.S. "Go" John Kerry!

Dean Anderson · 11-02-2004, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckz

On a kind of a tangent, but does anyone know where I can find some stuff about Jesus' resurrection? Is it highly discreditted or what is the status of it? I've been trying and I can't really find that much

Your best bet is to ask around in our Biblical Criticism and History forum. The guys in there can tell you far more than any sane person would ever want to know about the historical evidence (or lack of it) for Jesus's existence and/or resurrection.

Smakman · 11-02-2004, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

Magus, can you explain what "saved by faith" means.

Were all those people killed in the Flood "saved by faith"?

What about the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah? Were they "saved by faith" too?

If not, who exactly was saved by faith and who wasn't?

You miss the point. They had no faith, thus they perished.

Symptom · 11-02-2004, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smakman

You miss the point. They had no faith, thus they perished.

how merciful of him.

Heathen Dawn · 11-02-2004, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckz

What about all the humans before Jesus? Are they damned to hell? For what?

Humans before Jesus could be saved by believing in the promise of the Messiah to come—“salvation fore”, I call it, instead of the “salvation aft” after Jesus. The Olmecs would still go to hell, though.

Quote:

What about all the animals? Or are they devout Christians too?

Animals are just materials given by God to humans to exploit, like all of nature, so they don’t come into this.

Quote:

Why does God hand out infinite punishments for finite crimes?

Because any crime against the infinite God is an infinite crime. God is the most dearest and precious thing there is in the universe, because there’s only one of Him, and any sin against Him is much worse than doing harm to the US President.

Maybe I should be an actor.

Dean Anderson · 11-02-2004, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen Dawn

Humans before Jesus could be saved by believing in the promise of the Messiah to come—“salvation fore�?, I call it, instead of the “salvation aft�? after Jesus. The Olmecs would still go to hell, though.

That does it! Any system that sends the inventors of chocolate to hell must be immoral!

Magus55 · 11-02-2004, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckz

WTF? Assuming that 'the soul is infinite' (whatever the hell that means), how does that justify or having anything to do with infinite punishment for a crime that can be as small as not believing in the correct God?

Murder is different, but murder isn't the only way to get into hell.

You seem to be implying there exists a human today whose only crime is not believing in God.

Magus55 · 11-02-2004, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

Magus, can you explain what "saved by faith" means.

Saved by having faith and trust in God. Same way people are saved now, only today we go through Christ, where as back then they went throught the promise of the Messiah.

Quote:

Were all those people killed in the Flood "saved by faith"?

What about the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah? Were they "saved by faith" too?

If not, who exactly was saved by faith and who wasn't?

I'm not God, how do I know who is saved?

post tenebras lux · 11-02-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

The soul is infinite, and I would say theologically, your morality and conscience, as well as your motives are part of the infinite soul. And do you not consider some actions to be infinite? If someone murders someone else, they are committing a crime with infinite consequence. They ended that persons life for all eternity. How is that finite? Consequences and motives are important too you know - not just the physical act.

Hi Magus,
you appear to be introducing a new concept here. Do you believe that when you murder someone (a normal human, someone's who's earthbound life was finite anyway) you also kill their soul for all eternity?

Don't murder victims get a crack at the afterlife? They have no chance to progress to heaven, hell, the happy hunting ground or even valhalla?

Please explain why murder is a crime with infinite consequences Magus, and also what happens to the murder victim's soul afterwards. You can even throw in whether God had foreknowledge of the untimely demise of the murder victim if you wish.

Luxie

inquisitive01 · 11-02-2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

The concept of Hell has varied over the centuries both within and outside the Catholic Church, which only shows that it is a “human-made�? concept as opposed to a “divine�? one. Again, “pink unicorns�? reign… :notworthy

Then why does this concept of "punishment for eternity in hell" seem to be so widely used to justify disbelief in God, whom they claim not to believe exists in the first place? To me, this seems to be more of an attempt to go against God (and God's will) rather than an attempt to show disbelief. Just making things up? :huh:

Not sure what the phrase "pink unicorns reign" is supposed to prove either (?) - especially since pink unicorns are not the subject here (neither is Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc.).

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