Clivedurdle

Does the New Testament actually talk about Christ coming AGAIN?

If it does in some bits and not others when were the various bits thought to have been written? What did other writers write and when?

rhutchin

Here is one passage that speaks to the issue.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is alleged to have been written around 50 AD (or CE).

Clivedurdle

I do not think that does talk about a second coming! Read it carefully!

If the death and resurrection occured in heaven, then the above descending is the first one!

Remember, when that was allegedly written, the gospels did not exist. It might be read as a classic plea for salvation from the heavens.

What exactly is Jesus doing in heaven now? The complexity of the later plot of a second coming makes no sense! Why not all the trumps sounding etc the first time?

fromdownunder

Without quoting specific verses (if this discussion continues, I will look up references), at a minimum Paul and the authors of 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Revelation thought that there would be a tribulation, and that somehow Jesus was tied up in it.

The difference is (and again I will chase up references if necessary), they were convinced it would hapen within pretty much within their own lifetimes, just as Jesus is said to have preached.

Well, that is except for 2 Peter, which is probably late and virtually an apologetic for 1 Peter. ("I said it would happen soon, but this is how it is really going to work....")

Norm

dongiovanni1976x

It seems relatively clear that Paul is just consoling his brothers in Christ who are still alive "not to worry" about their friends and families, who WERE beleivers an YET died, that there is still a promise for them...and that promise is that God will come down from heaven and raise them up FIRST and then the implication is that those who are "still alive" will also be brought up "on a cloud" to heaven.
Paul even spoke to others comforting them that although some have died (possibly due to sexual indecency) that Jesus would return before they (those still alive) would die.

Clivedurdle

That is what I want to check out!

Is it not an assumption that Paul Revelation etc are talking about a second coming because that is the theological position of the Church?

Assume a Christ in heaven and a heavenly sacrifice, what is the actual wording used, does it presume a return or a first coming to save everyone?

If you assume an HJ then there has to be a second coming. If you assume an MJ we are talking about a first coming.

OK, what did these writers write?

rhutchin

I am not sure why we would think that the death and resurrection occured in heaven. Seems weird to think that.

Anyway, context points to a second coming. We have--

1 Thessalonians 1
9 ...they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The first passage speaks of the Thessalonians waiting for Christ to come from heaven. It then refers to Christ having been raised from the dead.

The latter passage speaks to some concerns of the Thessalonians concerning those who had died. The concern is about what happens to them when Christ comes. Paul responds, "...if we believe that Jesus died and rose again..." telling us that the people believed that Christ had died and risen.

The context seems only to allow the reader to draw the conclusion that Christ had once lived among the people, died and risen, and was to come again. I don't see how we could read anything else into it.

dongiovanni1976x

I have to agree with rhutchin but I am open to anything that I may have overlooked Clivedurdle...

dongiovanni1976x

I thought about this for a while and I need to ask a question: "Are you assuming that Jesus the man was the first coming and that he died and came back to the apostles and that that was the second coming?"
Because Paul mentions that coming (when Jesus appeared to the apostles and then the 500) and the implication is that that is the first. Although technically, when he was born and came to preach his message and die should be the first. So this second coming Christians are waiting for is technically the third coming. But the Paul, nonetheless, seems clear that Jesus is coming back VERY SOON and that final appearance is believed to be AFTER seeing him ride up to heaven on a cloud.

rhutchin

I can't think of an instance where the Bible describes any coming as 1st, 2nd, 3rd... I don't have a problem with your numbering scheme.

Nonetheless, traditionally, the "Second Coming" is that unique point in time when Christ returns, the world ends, and everyone stands before God to be judged. We can give it whatever number we want but the idea is the same.

While Paul anticipated that Christ would return soon (in his lifetime), I am not sure that he knew that Christ would return that soon.

The following would suggest that Christ could return at any time but no one could knows exactly when.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.