Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 12-16-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I heard a proclamation in a church class from a laymen that the "magi" were a group of people who traveled in groups of 120. Darn if I can Google up anything relating to that "information". Anyone know where it might come from?

120? I think 3 was 3 too many because Joseph was not home! . . . and they got there late because Luke's wisdom came that same day when the shepherds looked in and understood, and that wisdom kept coming because the shepherds told everybody and they all understood, . . . much in the same way as in John the baptized were baptizing too and that so everybody 'understood', as enlightenment is what that manger was all about!. . . and that got the pharisees upset then already, and now you are telling us that a whole army of 120 Magi came?

And so then on the 8 day I Luke's Jesus was presented in the temple while Matthews Jesus was still in the desert to make it known that "out of Egypt I have called my son," which is probably 'not a good thing' because he must be called a Nazorean and you cannot be both! . . . while yet they found it very important to go to Nazareth so he could be called a Nazorean even if withour any sign of empowerment, and Jesus pleaded with John to baptize him so it looks right, and I think something is rotten in Denmark here too.

Now if the shepherd were his eidetic images (eidolon's) that were 'on the run' (out of order) in the mind of Joseph, is that not where illumination must take place to come to 'reason again' after the 'non-rational' rebirth of Joseph [that Mary takes to heart without saying a word] before they go back home to Nazareth again? . . . and could this then not be called the 'final' or 'parousia' in the mind of Joseph? . . . that so also makes them shepherds fit to be his apostels and is sure to succeed later on?

DCHindley · 12-17-2011, 12:01 AM

While trying to discover where someone had heard about magi traveling in groups of 120, I chanced upon this. This is exactly the story that Brent Landau claims is new and unique!

In the Eastern Church, where, it would seem, there was less desire to find symbolic meanings than to magnify the circumstances of the history, the traditions assume a different character. The Magi arrive at Jerusalem with a retinue of 1000 men, having left behind them, on the further bank of the Euphrates, an army of 7000 (Jacob. Edess. and Bar-hebraeus, in Hyde, I. c. [Relig. Vet. Pers.]). They have been led to undertake the journey, not by the star only, or by expectations which they shared with Israelites, but by a prophecy of the founder of their own faith. Zoroaster had predicted that in the latter days there should be a Mighty One and a Redeemer, and that his descendants should see the star which should be the herald of his coming. According to another legend (Opus imperf. in Matt. ii. apud Chrysost. t. vi. ed. Montfaucon) they came from the remotest East, near the borders of the ocean. They had been taught to expect the star by a writing that bore the name of Seth. That expectation was handed down from father to son. Twelve of the holiest of them were appointed to be ever on the watch. Their post of observation was a rock known as the Mount of Victory. Night by night they washed in pure water, and prayed, and looked out on the heavens. At last the star appeared, and in it the form of a young child bearing a cross. A voice came from it and bade them proceed to Judaea. They started on their two years’ journey, and during all that time the meat and the drink with which they started never failed them. The gifts they bring are those which Abraham gave to their progenitors the sons of Keturah (this, of course, on the hypothesis that they were Arabians), which the queen of Sheba had in her turn presented to Solomon, and which had found their way back again to the children of the East (Epiphan. in Comp. Doctr. in Moroni, Dizion. [Gaetano Moroni, Dizionario di erudizione storico-ecclesiastica, 1854] l. c.). They return from Bethlehem to their own country, and give themselves up to a life of contemplation and prayer. When the twelve apostles leave Jerusalem to carry on their work as preachers, St. Thomas finds them in Parthia. They offer themselves for baptism, and become evangelists of the new faith ( Opus imperf. in Matt. ii. l. c.). [Dictionary Of The Bible, ed. William Smith, vol 2, 1863]

The following is from the Dissertation (p 137):

Chapter 2 Parallels and Problems
Comparing the Opus Imperfectum and the Syriac Revelation of the
Magi
I. Introduction
In this second chapter, the first of four major analytical chapters on the Revelation of the Magi (henceforth RevMagi), the task is to compare the Syriac text of the RevMagi as it is preserved in the late eighth-century Chronicle of Zuqnin (henceforth CZuq) with the only other known text from antiquity that contains a form of this narrative about the Magi.

This second text is the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum (henceforth OIM), an anonymous commentary on the Gospel of Matthew generally believed by scholars to have been written in the fifth century by an Arian theologian, but which many medieval Christians ascribed to John Chrysostom.

Whereas the Syriac text of the RevMagi is quite a lengthy document, the author of the OIM relates a much shorter version of this narrative in the course of his comments on the Magi pericope from the Gospel of Matthew.

The Dissertation is actually quite good. From it, it is clear that the story related in the Latin Opus Imprefectum in Mattheum homily 2, itself a translation of a lost Greek text, which is itself probably a translation of a Syriac text, is very close in content to the Syriac Revelation of the Magi preserved in the Chronicle of Zuqnin.

Why Landau would release such a cheezy popular rendition of the story I don't know. Perhaps he feels it is somehow uplifting ...

DCH

DCHindley · 12-17-2011, 12:09 PM

According to the Wiki article on

Magi:

A model for the homage of the Magi might have been provided, it has been suggested, by the journey to Rome of King Tiridates I of Armenia, with his magi, to pay homage to the Emperor Nero, which took place in 66 AD, a few years before the date assigned to the composition of the Gospel of Matthew.[A. Dietrich, „Die Weisen aus dem Morgenlande“, Zeitschrift für die Neutestamentliche Wissenschaft, Bd. III, 1902, S.1-14; cited in J. Duchesne-Guillemin, „Die Drei Weisen aus dem Morgenlande und die Anbetung der Zeit”, Antaios, Vol. VII, 1965, p. 234-252, p.245; cited in Mary Boyce and Frantz Genet, A History of Zoroastrianism, Leiden, Brill, 1991, p. 453, n.449. Archaeological History of Iran, London, Oxford University Press for the British Academy, 1935, pp.65-66.]

Also, the entry on

Tiridates I of Armenia:

Prior to embarking for Rome, Tiridates visited his mother and two brothers in Media Atropatene and Parthia. On his long trek he was accompanied by his family and an imposing retinue, comprising many feudal lords and 3,000 horsemen. His route lay across Thrace, through Illyria, on the eastern shores of the Adriatic and Picenum, in northeastern Italy.

The eastern tradition referred to in Smith's Dictionary are apparently from a tertiary source (

Thomas Hyde, Historia de Religionis Veterum Persarum, 1700 and republished 1760). Hyde, a Classicist who had also mastered Turkish, Arabic, Syriac, Persian & Hebrew, was the first to attempt to correct errors of the Greek and Roman historians who had described the religion of the ancient Persians, from Oriental sources themselves. Unfortunately Hyde's work is entirely in Latin. A Google Books version is available, but it is not searchable.

Apparently, they trace to a tradition from

Jacob of Edessa (640-708), Syriac Orthodox bishop of Edessa. It is unclear whether the source of this tradition is one of his many scholia on the bible, or his Chronicon. At the time of the Dictionary article, few of his works had yet been published as critical editions. Hyde seems to have found this tradition of Jacob in a work of

Gregory Bar Hebraeus, also a Syriac Orthodox bishop and later primate of the East in the mid to late 13th century. It is unclear to me whether the tradition is preserved in his Aucar Raze, "Storehouse of Secrets", a commentary on the entire Bible, or Makhtbhanuth Zabhne part two Chronicon Ecclesiasticum which covers religious history. Roger Pearce's blog identifies it as personal letter #14 To John of Litarba. reply to thirteen questions: on the composer of the Quqite hymns (Simeon the Potter): on the man in whose house our Lord celebrated the Passover: on 2 Cor. 12:7: on Philip, who baptised the eunuch of Candace: on John 19:25: on Peter the Fuller: on Timothy Ailouros; on the three people called Mar Isaac: on the Magi from Persia at the birth of Christ: on the direction of worship of Jews and Muslims: on Ezek. 37:1 14: on the distinction between XXX, XXX and XXX: and on the clause ‘to judge the living and the dead’ and Phil. 2:10 (BL Add. 12172(b), fols. 121b-120b).

It is amazing how stories have a strange way of being connected to folks far removed from those in the original story, on the basis of a common key word such as "Magi."

JMers, pay attention!

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

While trying to discover where someone had heard about magi traveling in groups of 120, I chanced upon this. This is exactly the story that Brent Landau claims is new and unique!

In the Eastern Church, where, it would seem, there was less desire to find symbolic meanings than to magnify the circumstances of the history, the traditions assume a different character. The Magi arrive at Jerusalem with a retinue of 1000 men, having left behind them, on the further bank of the Euphrates, an army of 7000 (Jacob. Edess. and Bar-hebraeus, in Hyde, I. c. [Relig. Vet. Pers.]). They have been led to undertake the journey, not by the star only, or by expectations which they shared with Israelites, but by a prophecy of the founder of their own faith. Zoroaster had predicted that in the latter days there should be a Mighty One and a Redeemer, and that his descendants should see the star which should be the herald of his coming. [Dictionary Of The Bible, ed. William Smith, vol 2, 1863]

DCHindley · 12-18-2011, 09:21 AM

I'm updating the info in previous post:

The eastern tradition referred to in Smith's Dictionary are apparently from a tertiary source (

Thomas Hyde, Historia de Religionis Veterum Persarum, 1700 and republished 1760). Hyde, a Classicist who had also mastered Turkish, Arabic, Syriac, Persian & Hebrew, was the first to attempt to correct errors of the Greek and Roman historians who had described the religion of the ancient Persians, from Oriental sources themselves. Unfortunately Hyde's work is entirely in Latin. A Google Books version is available, but it is not searchable.

Apparently, they trace to a tradition from

Jacob of Edessa (640-708), Syriac Orthodox bishop of Edessa. It is unclear whether the source of this tradition is one of his many scholia on the bible, or his Chronicon. At the time of the Dictionary article, few of his works had yet been published as critical editions. Roger Pearce's blog identifies it as personal letter #14 To John of Litarba (aka "the Stylite"):
Reply to thirteen questions: on the composer of the Quqite hymns (Simeon the Potter): on the man in whose house our Lord celebrated the Passover: on 2 Cor. 12:7: on Philip, who baptised the eunuch of Candace: on John 19:25: on Peter the Fuller: on Timothy Ailouros; on the three people called Mar Isaac: on the Magi from Persia at the birth of Christ: on the direction of worship of Jews and Muslims: on Ezek. 37:1 14: on the distinction between XXX, XXX and XXX: and on the clause ‘to judge the living and the dead’ and Phil. 2:10 (BL Add. 12172(b), fols. 121b-120b).
An apologetic site (to expose pagan Xmas stories) says it says something like
“'Jacob of Edessa (640-708), one of the most important ancient writers of the Church of the Jacobites, writes: "The Magi were from Persia, but they were not three, as portrayed by artists for the people, as derived from the threeness of the gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense, but rather twelve, as can be seen in many traditions. Those who came were princes and well-respected persons from the country of Persia. Many people, more than a thousand men, accompanied them, so that Jerusalem became very excited when they arrived."'
According to The Apocryphal and legendary life of Christ by James De Quincey Donehoo, says:

James of Edessa says they were twelve princes who left 7,000 soldiers at the Euphrates, and came to Jerusalem with a thousand men.

Hyde seems to have found another tradition in a work by

Gregory Bar Hebraeus, also a Syriac Orthodox bishop and later primate of the East in the mid to late 13th century. Donehoo says:

“Some say” says Barhebraeus, “that they were three princes who came with a thousand men.”
It is unclear to me whether the tradition is preserved in his Aucar Raze, "Storehouse of Secrets", a commentary on the entire Bible, or Makhtbhanuth Zabhne part two Chronicon Ecclesiasticum which covers religious history.

Landau has nothing to say whatsoever about these alternate traditions. These alternate traditions make the whole Magi affair seem like a Parthian invasion of Palestine, which it may be illuminating to observe, did occur just before the Romans intervened and installed Herod on the throne in the 30's BCE.

Chili · 12-18-2011, 11:16 AM

Very nice, but what I am reading here is that the 3 Magi who informed Herod are a short form of the 12 that arrived when Joseph was not home. The 3 Magi represnt 'faith, hope, and charity' in exchange for 'power wealth and beauty' to show that conversion took place as that was Joseph's ambition in Egypt where he was 'home' as outsider, to reform in his life in Galilee for which the 12 are needed to be his disciples . . . but really too bad for Joseph that their sheep were left without illumintion at the shore of Euphrates and so very near to the living water just begging for illumination which left his 12 disciples nee shepherds quite ignorant as to what really happened to Joseph and what this 'change of heart' was all about.

Please understand that 12 ousia's are needed to warrant par-ousia in Mt.13:44) called the Pearl of Great Worth, for which 'the shepherds were on the run' as ousia's seeking understanding while on the side of Euphates whence they came, (as primary premise of the ousia inspired from the Euphrates), and deserve to be addressed so that their sheep may be validated and fed even as 1000 in number. Note here that the number of 1000 or more are like richess in heaven but must be validated first so they can be counted as assets and are liabilities until such time, and so loaded into his 'house-boat' if you wish, and today this image is presented with the white candle in the Advent wreath that represent the Baptism candle still in our possession as received in wait for illumination.

Then also note that is how the shepherds understood as they looked in and told their friends who understood and so on; much the same as in John were the baptized were baptizing, and here now by satire are left 'back home' without understanding to confirm that Joseph was back in Egypt where the gold was still excellent and he wanted more of the same = not beyond theology when the sudden urge came.

mountainman · 12-22-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Why Landau would release such a cheezy popular rendition of the story I don't know. Perhaps he feels it is somehow uplifting ...

WHAT if the original non canonical story was in fact a cheezy popular mimic of the canonical story. Thomas Judas trecks to their remote Homeland, and most marvelously converts the Magi to Christianity ? For Christ's sake man, where is your sense of humor ? The story is a send-up. The audience was supposed to be laughing in the aisles, and falling all over the amphitheatre.

In discussing the Greek theatres of Alexandria we are of course talking about the home of Greek political satire.

The argument of best explanation is that, to put it in the very words of Eusebius, "the sacred matters of inspired teaching were exposed to the most shameful ridicule in the very theaters of the unbelievers.". The Gnostic writings were in part cheezy popular renditions and imaginitive non canonical clones of bits and pieces of the ORIGINAL cheezy popular rendition of the canonical story widely published at "War's End" c.324/325 CE. They, like the originals, were often read aloud by those who could read, to an audience who largely may not have been able to read [Greek].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Academic Summaries and Overviews of the nature of The New Testament Apocryphal Corpus

"insipid and puerile amplifications" [Ernest Renan]

"excluded by their later and radical light" [John Dominic Crossan]

"severely conditoned responses to Jesus ... usually these authors deny his humanity" [Robert M. Grant]

"they exclude themselves" [M.R. James]

"The practice of Christian forgery has a long and distinguished history" [Bart Ehrman]

"The Leucian Acts are Hellenistic romances, which were written to appeal to the masses" [Watson E. Mills, Roger Aubrey Bullard]

"The key point ... [NT Apocrypha] have all been long ago considered and rejected by the Church.

"The names of apostles ... were used by obscure writers to palm off their productions; partly to embellish and add to ... partly to invent ... partly to support false doctrines; decidedly pernicious, ... nevertheless contain much that is interesting and curious ... they were given a place which they did not deserve." [Tischendorf]

"Gnostic texts use parody and satire quite frequently ... making fun of traditional biblical beliefs"[April Deconick]

"heretics ... who were chiefly Gnostics ... imitated the books of the New Testament" [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

"enterprising spirits ... pretended Gospels full of romantic fables and fantastic and striking details, their fabrications were eagerly read and largely accepted as true by common folk who were devoid of any critical faculty and who were predisposed to believe what so luxuriously fed their pious curiosity." "the heretical apocryphists, composed spurious Gospels in order to trace backward their beliefs and peculiarities to Christ Himself." [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

"the fabrication of spurious Acts of the Apostles was, in general, to give Apostolic support to heretical systems, especially those of the many sects which are comprised under the term Gnosticism. The Gnostic Acts of Peter, Andrew, John, Thomas, and perhaps Matthew, abound in extravagant and highly coloured marvels, and were interspersed by long pretended discourses of the Apostles which served as vehicles for the Gnostic predications. The originally Gnostic apocryphal Acts were gathered into collections which bore the name of the periodoi (Circuits) or praxeis (Acts) of the Apostles, and to which was attached the name of a Leucius Charinus, who may have formed the compilation." [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

Quote:

Eusebius VC 65:
How on the Discovery of Prohibited Books among the Heretics,
Many of them return to the Catholic Church.

THUS were the lurking-places of the heretics broken up by the emperor's command, and the savage beasts they harbored (I mean the chief authors of their impious doctrines) driven to flight. Of those whom they had deceived, some, intimidated by the emperor's threats, disguising their real sentiments, crept secretly into the Church. For since the law directed that search should be made for their books .................................................. ..............

Wink. Wink. Nudge. Nudge. You get the idea?

These cheezy popular books were not appreciated by the publisher of the original cheezy book.

N/A

12-17-2011, 12:01 AM	#42
DCHindley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mondcivitan Republic Posts: 2,550	Well, Waddya know!? While trying to discover where someone had heard about magi traveling in groups of 120, I chanced upon this. This is exactly the story that Brent Landau claims is new and unique! In the Eastern Church, where, it would seem, there was less desire to find symbolic meanings than to magnify the circumstances of the history, the traditions assume a different character. The Magi arrive at Jerusalem with a retinue of 1000 men, having left behind them, on the further bank of the Euphrates, an army of 7000 (Jacob. Edess. and Bar-hebraeus, in Hyde, I. c. [Relig. Vet. Pers.]). They have been led to undertake the journey, not by the star only, or by expectations which they shared with Israelites, but by a prophecy of the founder of their own faith. Zoroaster had predicted that in the latter days there should be a Mighty One and a Redeemer, and that his descendants should see the star which should be the herald of his coming. According to another legend (Opus imperf. in Matt. ii. apud Chrysost. t. vi. ed. Montfaucon) they came from the remotest East, near the borders of the ocean. They had been taught to expect the star by a writing that bore the name of Seth. That expectation was handed down from father to son. Twelve of the holiest of them were appointed to be ever on the watch. Their post of observation was a rock known as the Mount of Victory. Night by night they washed in pure water, and prayed, and looked out on the heavens. At last the star appeared, and in it the form of a young child bearing a cross. A voice came from it and bade them proceed to Judaea. They started on their two years’ journey, and during all that time the meat and the drink with which they started never failed them. The gifts they bring are those which Abraham gave to their progenitors the sons of Keturah (this, of course, on the hypothesis that they were Arabians), which the queen of Sheba had in her turn presented to Solomon, and which had found their way back again to the children of the East (Epiphan. in Comp. Doctr. in Moroni, Dizion. [Gaetano Moroni, Dizionario di erudizione storico-ecclesiastica, 1854] l. c.). They return from Bethlehem to their own country, and give themselves up to a life of contemplation and prayer. When the twelve apostles leave Jerusalem to carry on their work as preachers, St. Thomas finds them in Parthia. They offer themselves for baptism, and become evangelists of the new faith ( Opus imperf. in Matt. ii. l. c.). [Dictionary Of The Bible, ed. William Smith, vol 2, 1863] The following is from the Dissertation (p 137): Chapter 2 Parallels and Problems Comparing the Opus Imperfectum and the Syriac Revelation of the Magi I. Introduction In this second chapter, the first of four major analytical chapters on the Revelation of the Magi (henceforth RevMagi), the task is to compare the Syriac text of the RevMagi as it is preserved in the late eighth-century Chronicle of Zuqnin (henceforth CZuq) with the only other known text from antiquity that contains a form of this narrative about the Magi. This second text is the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum (henceforth OIM), an anonymous commentary on the Gospel of Matthew generally believed by scholars to have been written in the fifth century by an Arian theologian, but which many medieval Christians ascribed to John Chrysostom. Whereas the Syriac text of the RevMagi is quite a lengthy document, the author of the OIM relates a much shorter version of this narrative in the course of his comments on the Magi pericope from the Gospel of Matthew. The Dissertation is actually quite good. From it, it is clear that the story related in the Latin Opus Imprefectum in Mattheum homily 2, itself a translation of a lost Greek text, which is itself probably a translation of a Syriac text, is very close in content to the Syriac Revelation of the Magi preserved in the Chronicle of Zuqnin. Why Landau would release such a cheezy popular rendition of the story I don't know. Perhaps he feels it is somehow uplifting ... DCH

12-18-2011, 09:21 AM	#44
DCHindley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mondcivitan Republic Posts: 2,550	I'm updating the info in previous post: The eastern tradition referred to in Smith's Dictionary are apparently from a tertiary source (Thomas Hyde, Historia de Religionis Veterum Persarum, 1700 and republished 1760). Hyde, a Classicist who had also mastered Turkish, Arabic, Syriac, Persian & Hebrew, was the first to attempt to correct errors of the Greek and Roman historians who had described the religion of the ancient Persians, from Oriental sources themselves. Unfortunately Hyde's work is entirely in Latin. A Google Books version is available, but it is not searchable. Apparently, they trace to a tradition from Jacob of Edessa (640-708), Syriac Orthodox bishop of Edessa. It is unclear whether the source of this tradition is one of his many scholia on the bible, or his Chronicon. At the time of the Dictionary article, few of his works had yet been published as critical editions. Roger Pearce's blog identifies it as personal letter #14 To John of Litarba (aka "the Stylite"): Reply to thirteen questions: on the composer of the Quqite hymns (Simeon the Potter): on the man in whose house our Lord celebrated the Passover: on 2 Cor. 12:7: on Philip, who baptised the eunuch of Candace: on John 19:25: on Peter the Fuller: on Timothy Ailouros; on the three people called Mar Isaac: on the Magi from Persia at the birth of Christ: on the direction of worship of Jews and Muslims: on Ezek. 37:1 14: on the distinction between XXX, XXX and XXX: and on the clause ‘to judge the living and the dead’ and Phil. 2:10 (BL Add. 12172(b), fols. 121b-120b). An apologetic site (to expose pagan Xmas stories) says it says something like “'Jacob of Edessa (640-708), one of the most important ancient writers of the Church of the Jacobites, writes: "The Magi were from Persia, but they were not three, as portrayed by artists for the people, as derived from the threeness of the gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense, but rather twelve, as can be seen in many traditions. Those who came were princes and well-respected persons from the country of Persia. Many people, more than a thousand men, accompanied them, so that Jerusalem became very excited when they arrived."' According to The Apocryphal and legendary life of Christ by James De Quincey Donehoo, says: James of Edessa says they were twelve princes who left 7,000 soldiers at the Euphrates, and came to Jerusalem with a thousand men. Hyde seems to have found another tradition in a work by Gregory Bar Hebraeus, also a Syriac Orthodox bishop and later primate of the East in the mid to late 13th century. Donehoo says: “Some say” says Barhebraeus, “that they were three princes who came with a thousand men.” It is unclear to me whether the tradition is preserved in his Aucar Raze, "Storehouse of Secrets", a commentary on the entire Bible, or Makhtbhanuth Zabhne part two Chronicon Ecclesiasticum which covers religious history. Landau has nothing to say whatsoever about these alternate traditions. These alternate traditions make the whole Magi affair seem like a Parthian invasion of Palestine, which it may be illuminating to observe, did occur just before the Romans intervened and installed Herod on the throne in the 30's BCE.

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12-18-2011, 11:16 AM	#45
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Very nice, but what I am reading here is that the 3 Magi who informed Herod are a short form of the 12 that arrived when Joseph was not home. The 3 Magi represnt 'faith, hope, and charity' in exchange for 'power wealth and beauty' to show that conversion took place as that was Joseph's ambition in Egypt where he was 'home' as outsider, to reform in his life in Galilee for which the 12 are needed to be his disciples . . . but really too bad for Joseph that their sheep were left without illumintion at the shore of Euphrates and so very near to the living water just begging for illumination which left his 12 disciples nee shepherds quite ignorant as to what really happened to Joseph and what this 'change of heart' was all about. Please understand that 12 ousia's are needed to warrant par-ousia in Mt.13:44) called the Pearl of Great Worth, for which 'the shepherds were on the run' as ousia's seeking understanding while on the side of Euphates whence they came, (as primary premise of the ousia inspired from the Euphrates), and deserve to be addressed so that their sheep may be validated and fed even as 1000 in number. Note here that the number of 1000 or more are like richess in heaven but must be validated first so they can be counted as assets and are liabilities until such time, and so loaded into his 'house-boat' if you wish, and today this image is presented with the white candle in the Advent wreath that represent the Baptism candle still in our possession as received in wait for illumination. Then also note that is how the shepherds understood as they looked in and told their friends who understood and so on; much the same as in John were the baptized were baptizing, and here now by satire are left 'back home' without understanding to confirm that Joseph was back in Egypt where the gold was still excellent and he wanted more of the same = not beyond theology when the sudden urge came.

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