Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-10-2011, 05:49 PM

Bible Scholar Brent Landau Asks “Who Were the Magi”?

Quote:

For early Christians, the seemingly pivotal yet unexplained background of the mysterious magi provided abundant room to shape new narratives around the question, “Who were the magi?” One of the most compelling, recently translated into English by Brent Landau, professor of religious studies at the University of Oklahoma, is the so-called Revelation of the Magi, an apocryphal account of the traditional Christmas story that purports to have been written by the magi themselves.

The account is preserved in an eighth-century C.E. Syriac manuscript held in the Vatican Library, although Brent Landau believes the earliest versions of the text may have been written as early as the mid-second century, less than a hundred years after Matthew’s gospel was composed. Written in the first person, the Revelation of the Magi narrates the mystical origins of the magi, their miraculous encounter with the luminous star and their equally miraculous journey to Bethlehem to worship the child. The magi then return home and preach the Christian faith to their brethren, ultimately being baptized by the apostle Thomas.

... In the Revelation of the Magi, there are not just three magi, as often depicted in early Christian art (actually, Matthew does not tell us how many there were), nor are they Babylonian astrologers or Persian Zoroastrians, as other early traditions held. Rather from Brent Landau’s translation it is clear the magi (defined in this text as those who “pray in silence”) are a group—numbering as few as 12 and as many as several score—of monk-like mystics from a far-off, mythical land called Shir, possibly China. They are descendants of Seth, the righteous third son of Adam, and the guardians of an age-old prophecy that a star of indescribable brightness would someday appear “heralding the birth of God in human form.”

Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Duvduv · 12-10-2011, 05:55 PM

What about the citation in Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78, discussing that they were from ARABIA??
Personally, I don't believe Dialogue and the First Apology were written by the same person. However, no one in the Church bothered to "correct" the reference to Arabia and make it "the East" or Persia?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Bible Scholar Brent Landau Asks “Who Were the Magi”?

Quote:

For early Christians, the seemingly pivotal yet unexplained background of the mysterious magi provided abundant room to shape new narratives around the question, “Who were the magi?” One of the most compelling, recently translated into English by Brent Landau, professor of religious studies at the University of Oklahoma, is the so-called Revelation of the Magi, an apocryphal account of the traditional Christmas story that purports to have been written by the magi themselves.

The account is preserved in an eighth-century C.E. Syriac manuscript held in the Vatican Library, although Brent Landau believes the earliest versions of the text may have been written as early as the mid-second century, less than a hundred years after Matthew’s gospel was composed. Written in the first person, the Revelation of the Magi narrates the mystical origins of the magi, their miraculous encounter with the luminous star and their equally miraculous journey to Bethlehem to worship the child. The magi then return home and preach the Christian faith to their brethren, ultimately being baptized by the apostle Thomas.

... In the Revelation of the Magi, there are not just three magi, as often depicted in early Christian art (actually, Matthew does not tell us how many there were), nor are they Babylonian astrologers or Persian Zoroastrians, as other early traditions held. Rather from Brent Landau’s translation it is clear the magi (defined in this text as those who “pray in silence”) are a group—numbering as few as 12 and as many as several score—of monk-like mystics from a far-off, mythical land called Shir, possibly China. They are descendants of Seth, the righteous third son of Adam, and the guardians of an age-old prophecy that a star of indescribable brightness would someday appear “heralding the birth of God in human form.”

Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Andykiwi · 12-10-2011, 06:50 PM

I still believe they were the priests of the Zoroastrian religion, and they are in Matthew's gospel because "Matthew" used a lot of Zoroastrian ideas in his gospel and probably felt he was improving on them.

Some Zoroastrian ideas that are in Matthew...
Judgment after death
Salvation by works (not by grace) (Ref "sheep and the goats")
"End Times" prophecy
"Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds" (see sermon on the mount)

Like a relay race, Matthew was showing Zoroastrianism "passing the baton" to Christianity, IMO.

Zoroastrianism

Duvduv · 12-10-2011, 06:57 PM

Why is there an extensive disagreement where they were from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

I still believe they were the priests of the Zoroastrian religion, and they are in Matthew's gospel because "Matthew" used a lot of Zoroastrian ideas in his gospel and probably felt he was improving on them.

Some Zoroastrian ideas that are in Matthew...
Judgment after death
Salvation by works (not by grace) (Ref "sheep and the goats")
"End Times" prophecy
"Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds" (see sermon on the mount)

Like a relay race, Matthew was showing Zoroastrianism "passing the baton" to Christianity, IMO.

Zoroastrianism

Andykiwi · 12-10-2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Why is there an extensive disagreement where they were from?

I would guess that that document that is in the Catholic library is just a constructed fraud.

The priests of Zoroastrianism were called Magi, and the Jews were there with them at one time, in Babylon.
It seems inevitable that they would take some of what they considered their better ideas and include them into their own religion(s), and that's what they seem to have done. That's why there were various different Jewish groups around when Christianity started.

Duvduv · 12-10-2011, 07:31 PM

So you mean that Dialogue with Trypho is not an authentic text either by Justin Martyr or anyone else? And if so, why would a "Christian" text constructed by the Church explicitly contradict the NT?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Why is there an extensive disagreement where they were from?

I would guess that that document that is in the Catholic library is just a constructed fraud.

The priests of Zoroastrianism were called Magi, and the Jews were there with them at one time, in Babylon.
It seems inevitable that they would take some of what they considered their better ideas and include them into their own religion(s), and that's what they seem to have done. That's why there were various different Jewish groups around when Christianity started.

Cege · 12-10-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem (or via: amazon.co.uk)

I dare not read for at least another 33 years! :

Reading level: Ages 99 and up

Andykiwi · 12-10-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So you mean that Dialogue with Trypho is not an authentic text either by Justin Martyr or anyone else? And if so, why would a "Christian" text constructed by the Church explicitly contradict the NT?

It would be an apocryphal document, like so many others, made for some obscure reason, that wasn't included in official Catholic scriptures because they didn't like or agree with what it was saying.

Duvduv · 12-10-2011, 08:06 PM

But who would have written so extensively knowing it contradicted the ostensibly canon tradition?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So you mean that Dialogue with Trypho is not an authentic text either by Justin Martyr or anyone else? And if so, why would a "Christian" text constructed by the Church explicitly contradict the NT?

It would be an apocryphal document, like so many others, made for some obscure reason, that wasn't included in official Catholic scriptures because they didn't like or agree with what it was saying.

Andykiwi · 12-10-2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But who would have written so extensively knowing it contradicted the ostensibly canon tradition?

It may well have been written originally before 200 CE, and back in that time many people were writing various religious ideas and not always being faithful to any true history. It didn't seem to matter if they included mythology and legends, or made up new ones, as long as people liked the result.

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12-10-2011, 06:50 PM	#3
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	I still believe they were the priests of the Zoroastrian religion, and they are in Matthew's gospel because "Matthew" used a lot of Zoroastrian ideas in his gospel and probably felt he was improving on them. Some Zoroastrian ideas that are in Matthew... Judgment after death Salvation by works (not by grace) (Ref "sheep and the goats") "End Times" prophecy "Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds" (see sermon on the mount) Like a relay race, Matthew was showing Zoroastrianism "passing the baton" to Christianity, IMO. Zoroastrianism

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