TedM

It can make sense if at some time after the prophecy people began to believe that those prophecies had been fulfilled, even if they had not witnessed it first-hand. Thus we have theories from people like Wells that some character had existed (or been dreamed up as existing) 100-200 years before Jesus, and from Doherty that some time in history they were fulfilled in some other dimension that was similar to earth, but not the same.

Over time people wanted more flesh and details so more information was written down to fulfill the demand. The question was whether those writing the information were basing it on anything real or not. Why, if the original belief was that he lived 100-200 years prior, was a history not developed to flesh out that period of time ? Why, if the original belief was that he was in some other dimension, did we not get his placement in THAT dimension with more detail added on?

sotto voce

So thousands, nay, millions of people, spontaneously, without consulting, arrived at the detailed account of Jesus that is the NT? That's really some mighty revelation! Surely the conventional explanation is more likely.

Assuming that the writers of the NT did not themselves collude in some enormous bit of public deception (god only knows why!), they very clearly believed that the long-promised messiah had lived, or 'tabernacled' among them. They took pains to say so, most of them. Even those who did not, predicated their teaching to the churches on a material change that could not be based merely on prophecy. HJ is there by implication, if not explicitly. It could be all invention, true, but imv it is easier to believe that events took place as they recorded than to believe that they somehow master-minded the NT revelation, with its intimate yet often unsuspected relation to the OT, out of nothing.

Maybe. But that's the supernatural, too.

Quite so. Some of these hypotheses make for more questions than they answer.

stephan huller

But isn't a visionary experience 'historical' in the sense that it can linked to a date, place and time? For instance St Peter of Alexandria met Jesus on a date that can be calculated down to the day of the week. Of course the year was 311 CE.

I've never been comfortable with the word 'historical' because supernatural experiences can be both historical and imaginary. The question isn't whether Jesus is 'historical' but 'real' - i.e. a human being. In fact you never find a heretical group questioning Jesus's 'historicity'

A bad example. Just the other day for instance I was walking my dog and as I pulled out the plastic bag to pick up its business, my wallet fell out. I was convinced that I had my wallet in my possession for a long period of time. I know my account numbers, passwords etc so I was paying bills, withdrawing money - in short my bank account was active in spite of my bank cards being out of my possession (but I was still under the illusion I had the cards).

sotto voce

How is it known that Peter of Alexandria was a Saint? Or is that purely imaginary?

stephan huller

In this sense then the Christian god is different than the gods of Greek myths insofar as he is tied to a contemporary 'visitation' (unless of course you include Commodus presenting himself as Hercules redivivus.

stephan huller

He is called a saint in the same way you have a reputation for being a nuiscance

sotto voce

Totally without foundation, then. Only propagandists object to pertinent questions.

'supernatural experiences can be both historical and imaginary'

Evidently claptrap.

stephan huller

How would you describe the visionary experience at Lourdes? 'Supernatural and imaginary' would be my guess.

"On 11 February 1858, Bernadette, then aged 14, was out gathering firewood and bones with her sister Marie and a friend near the grotto of Massabielle (Tuta de Massavielha) when she had her first vision. As she recounted later, while the other girls crossed the little stream in front of the grotto and walked on, Bernadette stayed behind, looking for a place to cross where she wouldn't get her stockings wet. She finally sat down in the grotto to take her shoes off in order to cross the water and was lowering her first stocking when she heard the sound of rushing wind, but nothing moved. A wild rose in a natural niche in the grotto, however, did move. From the niche, or rather the dark alcove behind it, "came a dazzling light, and a white figure." This was the first of 18 visions of what she referred to as aquero (pronounced [aˈk(e)ɾɔ]), Gascon Occitan for "that". In later testimony, she called it "a small young lady" (uo petito damizelo). Her sister and her friend stated that they had seen nothing" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Soubirous

As I have noted here many times the entire gospel narrative originally fit between Epiphany and Passover - only a dozen weeks give or take.

PJLazy

These MJ arguments always fall apart once you get to the when, why, and how. I have never come across even a remotely logical explanation as to when vague, anonymous person "invented" Jesus, why they did it, and how they got so many to believe so quickly and so widespread. Trying to eliminate a HJ through lack of extant documentation or dicta is missing the forest for the trees.

Steven Carr

Wow!