Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Does that make it impossible for you to know whether God is working in your life and to object if you do not like what you see happening? Regardless what the Calvinists say (and I am a Calvinist), that does not stop you from knowing what is happening to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is in control of your destiny and can do with you as He pleases.

If all is predetermined, why are you discussing it on a message board? You want to gloat to the unsaved?

Just want you to understand the obvious. If you can see that God has not saved you, what prevents you complaining to God about it and doing something to change your situation? Only yourself.

makerowner · 01-08-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

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Originally Posted by makerowner

Actually, we know considerably less, because the Bible accounts on the subject are contradictory and the knowledge of the authors is unknown.

The knowledge of the authors is irrelevant. What they wrote about heaven and hell reflected whatever knowledge they had and that is what we know.

Maybe you could identify a contradiction in the description of either heaven or hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 16:22-24 (RSV)

[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

vs.

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Originally Posted by Eccl. 9:5 RSV

[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

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Originally Posted by Eccl. 9:10 RSV

[10] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

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Originally Posted by Ps. 6:5 RSV

[5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee;
in Sheol who can give thee praise?

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Originally Posted by makerowner

So might makes right?

It doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is in control of your destiny and can do with you as He pleases.

So yes.

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Maybe you could identify a contradiction in the description of either heaven or hell.

Luke 16:22-24 (RSV)
[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

vs.

Eccl. 9:5 RSV
[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

Eccl. 9:10 RSV
[10] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Ps. 6:5 RSV
[5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee;
in Sheol who can give thee praise?

So, what's the contradiction? You choose a parable told by Jesus which is a story used by Him to teach doctrine and not describe reality. Seems a little contrived on your part.

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Is the current city of Tyre the same as the ancient city of Tyre? Given that the verse says, "...though you be sought for, you will never be found again...," maybe the old city of Tyre has disappeared forever and a new city was built to replace it.

Nope. It's now called Sur. There's a link here to a Google Maps picture of the city.

So, is that city a whole new city built after Tyre was destroyed or is it the same city as ancient Tyre?

makerowner · 01-08-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Nope. It's now called Sur. There's a link here to a Google Maps picture of the city.

So, is that city a whole new city built after Tyre was destroyed or is it the same city as ancient Tyre?

Same one. It's got a continuous history through Alexander's capture of the city, the Crusades, and into the present day.

makerowner · 01-08-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Luke 16:22-24 (RSV)
[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

vs.

Eccl. 9:5 RSV
[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

Eccl. 9:10 RSV
[10] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Ps. 6:5 RSV
[5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee;
in Sheol who can give thee praise?

So, what's the contradiction? You choose a parable told by Jesus which is a story used by Him to teach doctrine and not describe reality. Seems a little contrived on your part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt. 18:7-9

[7]"Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!

[8] And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
[9] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt. 5:22

[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Contrast these with the Eccl. quotes above.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-08-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

So, what's the contradiction? You choose a parable told by Jesus which is a story used by Him to teach doctrine and not describe reality. Seems a little contrived on your part.

What about Ezekiel's false claim that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar?

At any rate, skeptics are not under any obligation to disprove PRIOR assertions that were made by the Bible writers.

Amaleq13 · 01-08-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Jesus healed the paralytic to make his point and the Pharisees understood that He was not only claiming to be God but doing that which only God can do.

He was denying that only God could forgive sins and performing a magical healing to give himself legitimacy. Just like any other alleged healer of the time and just like Paul and the apostles did later.

You are reading your beliefs into this passage.

juergen · 01-08-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Does that make it impossible for you to know whether God is working in your life and to object if you do not like what you see happening? Regardless what the Calvinists say (and I am a Calvinist), that does not stop you from knowing what is happening to you.

I'm not exactly sure if I understand your statement. The answer would depend on your theological framework, wouldn't it? Calvinism would assert that God making a choice for someone would necessarily imply subsequent recognition of God's existance, autommatic acceptance of God's call and work, and the obligatory following through of God's work until after person dies. Also, the unregenerate person wouldn't be able to recognize God, so he couldn't object to something he doesn't believe in, in the first place. He could possibly object to a Calvinist's ideas that things should be as described by Calvinism, but given God's preference for leaving most people in the dark, objection to such ideas could only be logically expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose as they desired. He gives you and all others a similar freedom. After that God can choose whom He will save from among those who freely rejected Him.

Could you define 'similar freedom'?

So A&E don't have "original sin" making their choice different from the rest. However, at this point I don't understand how someone espousing a Calvinistic framework would be able to assert that people have freedom to choose God. Wouldn't this freedom mean that people are not spiritually dead? How is being spiritually dead equal being able to see both sides and make a desicion for either side (ie being free)? Maybe you mean people have freedom in a way in which they could possibly be heard saying "I accept to believe in God" or "I reject believing in God". In that sense, yes, I would be free to start speaking Chinese right now (whether I'm actually able or not), or I'd be free to start liking Reggaeton (whether I'm actually able to like it or not).

If people are born spiritually dead, they have never really made a choice. A&E might have made a choice, but no one else, assuming everyone else is spiritually dead from the moment of birth. According to Calvinism, God made a choice, but not them. They're just reacting to how God decreed desicions would turn out, negatively, or positively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Are you claiming that you cannot tell where you stand with God and that you cannot object if you do not like what you see?

All I meant to say with that, is that given the assumption that people are spiritually dead, they wouldn't even recognize "to know what's going on" if it hit them with a truck. They wouldn't associate any 'outcome' with 'what is going on,' nor would they see the need 'to do something about it.' Given the assumption that people are spiritually dead, they have no frame of spiritual reference by which to conclude that God is at work and inviting them in the first place. They are unable because God made them unable, and they're living out life as such. If God created and set the plan in motion that would include everyone since A&E's disobedience to be spiritually blind/dead unless he intervenes, it makes little sense to assert that they'll posess any kind of freedom or ability to actually make a meaningful choice.

Can predetermined things change?

As i understand Calvinism, God's determination to not save some equals him keeping from them the only thing that could actually reverse their course (his personal intervention).

The only workaround is "God wants it his way, and that's that", which is exactly "might makes right," or "Shut up, I'm God, how do you dare contradict me. I do whatever I want to."

If it has been determined that, say, 7 out of 10 people will not be saved, they can't be saved.

I don't see much freedom for anyone of these 7 people to actually be able to ever decide to be saved. Neither do I see freedom to decide against God, in Calvinism, since God's salvation is guaranteed for those he chose to be saved. There would be nothing that could ever keep you from getting saved, not even yourself.

We must have different definitions for "freedom."

I apologize for my wordiness.

ben052483 · 01-08-2008, 11:23 AM

I can understand dedicating your life to a belief in god and not wanting to let it go and admit it was a waste, but Rhutchin here is a slippery fellow.

Why would God demand that you corrupt your reason so much? There could be a verse in the bible that says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is a god" and he would claim that it depends on how we interpret fool.

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01-08-2008, 11:23 AM	#210
ben052483 Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: nowhere,U.S.A Posts: 216	I can understand dedicating your life to a belief in god and not wanting to let it go and admit it was a waste, but Rhutchin here is a slippery fellow. Why would God demand that you corrupt your reason so much? There could be a verse in the bible that says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is a god" and he would claim that it depends on how we interpret fool.

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