Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-19-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It has been speculated that "throw it to the potter" was just an expression; or that the word potter means something else (it is translated as "smelter" in the LXX.)

You would expect that if the Lord were the potter, he would have just said, give it to me.

In regard to clay there is also the Infancy Gospel of Thomas
where many strange incidents are narrated, but specifically one
in which Jesus makes clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life,
an act also attributed to Jesus in Qur'an 5:110.

This apocryphal story looks like .... "just another anti-christian satire".

Quote:

In another episode, a child disperses water that Jesus has collected, Jesus then curses him, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse, found in the Greek text A, and Latin versions. The Greek text B doesn't mention Jesus cursing the boy, and simply says that the child "went on, and after a little he fell and gave up the ghost," (M.R. James translation). Another child dies when Jesus curses him when he apparently accidentally bumps into him. In the latter case, there are three differing versions recorded the Greek Text A, Greek Text B, and the Latin text. Instead of bumping into Jesus in A, B records that the child throws a stone at Jesus, while the last says the boy punched him.

When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, they are miraculously struck blind by Jesus. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but arrogantly tries to teach the teacher instead, upsetting the teacher who suspects supernatural origins. Jesus is amused by this suspicion, which he confirms, and revokes all his earlier apparent cruelty. Subsequently he resurrects a friend who is killed when he falls from a roof, and another who cuts his foot with an axe.

After various other demonstrations of supernatural ability, new teachers try to teach Jesus, but he proceeds to explain the law to them instead. There are another set of miracles in which Jesus heals his brother who is bitten by a snake, and two others who have died from different causes. Finally, the text recounts the episode in Luke in which Jesus, aged twelve, teaches in the temple

ph2ter · 10-20-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,
I assume that the potter would be the Lord.

The key text is Zachariah 11:

Quote:

7So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”
10Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.
12I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

Zachariah seems to be demonstrating that the covenant between God and the Hebrews can easily be broken. They apparently give him 30 pieces of silver to fix it. God is telling Zachariah to give the 30 pieces of silver to him (the potter), so Zachariah just throws it into the temple. God is being sarcastic when he calls it "a handsome price."

Apparently Matthew knows a version of the story where the temple priests buy a field to bury strangers with the money.

Matthew 27:

Matthew says Jeremiah instead of Zachariah. It is possible that he forgot the name of the prophet that the story goes with, or that he actually read the story in a text of Jeremiah instead of Zachariah.

In any case the important thing is that the high priests showed disdain for the lord when they offered only 30 pieces of silver for God to keep his covenant with them. In the Judas story, possibly written by Matthew, the high priests show disdain for God, by offering only 30 pieces of silver for their contract with Judas. Zachariah/Jeremiah, representing the Lord, was only worth 30 pieces of silver to the high priests. Jesus representing the Lord is again only worth 30 pieces of silver to the high priests. Its a parallel (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Looking closely at the Genesis 37.26-28. one could see that Joseph, the firstborn of Rachel and son of Jacob, impersonates Israel in the imagery in which the whole Israel is the firstborn son of Yhwh. Joseph ended in Egypt, in the land land beyond the sea, which symbolizes the mythical netherworld. His brothers wanted to kill him, but they rather sold him for twenty shekels of silver. This was done by Judah, one of the twelve sons of Jacob-Israel. Afterward they say to Jacob that Joseph's body has been torn to pieces. Tearing the body has close connections with the ritual sacrifice. The replacement in a form of a male goat strengthen that. The Ishmaelites as strangers represent the buyers and the sons of Israel/Jacob represent the sellers. The story in encoded form says that Joseph as a firstborn of Israel/Jacob is sacrificed to God. His brothers sacrificed him for their 'selfish' benefit. There is also present the motive of redemption by money and redemption by a goat which is sacrificed instead of Joseph.
They have got the redemption money which belonged to God and because that they all ended in Egypt - the whole Israel as God's firstborn son is sacrificed to God. The Israelites finally returned from Egypt and became alive again.

The same symbolism is present also in Zechariah 11.
Zechariah 11 is about kings of Judah and Israel who sell Israelites as their subjects to the strangers (Babylonians) for their selfish benefit. God intentionally abandoned the Israelites, i.e. he sacrificed them. Zechariah convoluted the story in a way which enabled Christians to interpret it like if it is applied to the (Lord) Jesus ("the handsome price at which they priced me!").
The motive of a potter looks strange, but it is not.
In resolving that Jeremiah 19 may help. He mentions a potter in a same context of abandonment of Israelites by God in the time of immediate Babylonian threat. He mentions the reason why the Israelites were abandoned: they used to burn their firstborn sons in the fire as offerings to Baal at Tophet, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. The prophet bought a clay jar from a potter and broke it at the place of Tophet. A clay jar symbolizes Israel and its breaking symbolizes destruction of Israel by Babylonians and by God. Actually God sacrifices Israel as his firstborn son. Symbolically the breaking is done exactly at the place where ancient Israelites sacrificed their firstborn sons. God told Jeremiah to break a pot at the field there, to show to the Israelites what God would do to them for rejecting him.
Motive of breaking the clay jar has close connections with the breaking of sacred pithos which ancient Hittites have been doing when celebrating the thunder-god („but when in spring it thunders, they open the pithos and pound and grind it“). This is euphemism for sacrifice of the thunder-god's son as a deity of corn. As we can see the symbolism is the same, sacrifice of the firstborn son. This son is Israel as a whole nation. In Christian sense that son also could be Jesus.

The potter's field of Matthew and Aceldama of the Acts is actually the place where the Tophet was, where ancient Israelites sacrificed their firstborn sons. Potter's field is the field of Yahwh, sacred place where ancient Israelites sacrificed their firstborns. After reform that place got the negative connotations, because such kind of sacrifice was forbidden. This enabled Matthew to place there the death of Judas, but actually it is a better fit for Jesus' death. Judas is some kind of a negative reflection of Jesus, his negative twin.

jakejonesiv · 10-20-2009, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

Looking closely at the Genesis 37.26-28. one could see that Joseph, the firstborn of Rachel and son of Jacob, impersonates Israel in the imagery in which the whole Israel is the firstborn son of Yhwh. Joseph ended in Egypt, in the land land beyond the sea, which symbolizes the mythical netherworld. His brothers wanted to kill him, but they rather sold him for twenty shekels of silver. This was done by Judah, one of the twelve sons of Jacob-Israel. Afterward they say to Jacob that Joseph's body has been torn to pieces. Tearing the body has close connections with the ritual sacrifice. ...

This is good work.

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