Endymion83

Why would the rich man be sent directly to hell? Doesnt this go against revelations, where everyone is judged first?

LP675

Hahahaha… you might be a lot of things (i.e. insert nasty descriptions here) but you are definitely funny! Who thinks of that kind of stuff? You have such a fertile imagination! As I said ‘no mind has conceived what God has in store for those who love him’.

My reading of the end of revelation (and that of most commentators I have read) is that there seems to be no differentiation between heaven and earth (the new heaven and new earth seem to be in the same place).


I will repeat to all those talking about “well is it metaphor or isn’t it� that the problem for me is determining how closely the metaphor resembles actuality. Not that eternal punishment and conscious damnation is not a reality (or not actually going to happen).

spin

I read that to mean that you can't conceive of it and that you won't attempt to. That's why I attempted to take you by the hand and lead you a little way down the path in order for you to start contemplating the implications.

Your non-reading. I suppose heaven and earth are now the same place. Whatever. The first heaven and the first earth pass away to make way for the new heaven and the new earth. Are they the same place at this stage? No, of course not. The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven. You haven't got a clue.

You're not going to think and I think you've lost your entertainment value.


spin

LP675

Why should I bother speculating when I don’t have enough information, and I am told such speculation is futile?
For your own sake please stop embarrassing yourself. When I studied the book scholarly consensus seemed to be Heaven and earth are joined by the end of revelation, as "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them.�. John says; “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.�. Also “The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face.�. The thrones previously in heaven are now in the City which has apparently been lowered to the new Earth.

LP

Godless Wonder

Alright, let's take it as a metaphor. What are we supposed to get out of it? How should we interpret it? It still seems to me that it's saying: Evil rich people get punished in the afterlife, good poor people get rewarded. The punishment might not be literally being "tormented in this flame", but in some sense they should be like being "tormented in this flame." And in what sense would that be? At the very least the punishment should be "misery inducing" if the metaphor is reasonably good. And since Jesus is God (right? I don't really grok the trinity), presumably he knows, and the metaphor is good?

spin

Umm, lowered from where?... don't bother.

Nice talking to you.


spin

LP675

ok.

Thanks, likewise.

BATERBOY

Hello Everyone,
I'm new here and would like to give some information I ran across on this subject. I got the information from http://www.bibleorigins.net/ it's in the NT Articles , titled Hell's pre-Christian Origins. It's a very intresting article.
It suggests that the Christian hell was borrowed from the Greek and Egytian myths. Greek myths mention 2 "fiery" rivers of the underworld, evidently branches of the river Styx. The first river is called phlegethon meaning "the flaming" while the second river is called pyriphlegthon meaning "flaming with fire". Egyptian myths speak of a " fiery pool, sea, or lake" in the underworld and shows this body of fiery water on the walls of tombs.
From 'The Mythology of All Races, Egytian', by Max Muller, he notes scenes of the damned being tortured in the underworld. They are hacked up with knives, consumed in flames erupting from a great underworld serpent or dragon, placed in fiery pits, their bodies in an underworld river, the subterranean Nile or cosigned to a "lake of fire" after judgement.
Only Egyptian myths had the notion of a reward of a blissful life along the fruit tree- laden banks of a heavenly Nile. Greek myths later embrace this notion.
From 'The Gods of the Egyptians', by Wallis Budge, he writes, "All the available evidence goes to show that whilst the Hebrew conception of Leviathan was of Babylonian origin that of a hell of fire was borrowed from Egypt. Similary, the seven-headed dragon and beast of the book Revelation, like the seven-headed basilisk serpent mentioned in Pistis Sophia, have their origin in the seven- headed serpent which is mentioned in the Pyramid texts."
There is much more at this site on the subject and it makes a good case. I would recommend looking it up, it may answer a lot of questions you may have.

spin

Budge was writing before we had knowledge of Ugarit. Firstly, the idea of the dragon is plainly also in Hebrew tradition, as the poli-headed Leviathan in Ps 74:14 shows. Isaiah 27:1 tells us more about the Leviathan, using words which are almost word for word from a Ugaritic text. The Leviathan is also the chaos dragon called in Hebrew Tehom, hidden in Gen 1:2, and who is known as Tiamat in the Babylonian creation account, Enuma Elish. This same many-headed dragon is also the source for the Greek Hydra.

Despite the fact that Egypt had a seven headed serpent, I think the source for revalation's dragon is purely Semitic.


spin

Amlodhi

That depends on where you look. According to many Christian bible scholars, Ezekiel, beginning with chapter 40 is a prophetic description of Israel in the kingdom age. Which makes your further quote an interesting statement:

And yet, Ezekiel not only says there will be a temple, but he provides a meticulous description of it. This description includes how the altars will be set up, and how the animal sacrifices will be performed.

Why would Ezekiel envisage animal sacrifice in the New World kingdom of God? I suspect it was because Ezekiel liked his Jewish perspective and didn't care one whit what later Christians would dream up.

However, the reverend doctor C.I. Scofield, D.D. offers this excuse:

I particularly like the way he changes the wording here to "offerings" as if he can't even bring himself to say the word "sacrifice" in this context.

Those who jump to the conclusion that Ezekiel must have been describing the 2nd temple to be built following the Babylonian captivity, or the temple that is said will be built in the future, have not taken a good look at Ezekiel's description.

Thus LP675 , either Ezekiel was wrong in his prophecy, or you will be spending your eternity going back and forth to Jerusalem, to the outer gentile courts of the temple, where you can make arrangements for the temple priests to perform animal sacrifices for you.

Namaste'

Amlodhi