Freethought & Rationalism Archive

happytime · 03-09-2004, 05:16 AM

I've been wondering about hell. Recently I've been apart of a discussion on another board and some say hell was meant as a place of torture while another says it's merely means a grave. One passage I found thats seems to support a place of torture is, Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." I haven't read the whole bible, only bits and pieces but it is on my reading list. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Nectaris · 03-09-2004, 06:14 AM

There is no evidence that I know of to support the existence of Hell, unless you're talking about a city in Michigan--next discussion.

It depends on whether your talking about the OT, the NT, or both. The OT doesn't really have a reference to hell per se, but a place called Sheol. Which has been translated by some as meaing the same thing as hell, but from what I've read it's more of a destination for everyone regardless of their deeds in this life. It can also just mean grave.

If you’re talking about the NT Hell, I think it evident that it is a place where people are punished:

Quote:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I know that there are many Christians who suggest that Hell is not a place of punishment, but merely a permanent separation from god. My question, at that point, would be: How is that any different from life on earth, as it is now?

I think the problem is that there isn't any consensus, because no one really knows. I lean toward the hell doesn't exist platform--well not really lean, I pretty much stand squarely upon it. I think any definition/description people give reflects more on the person giving the defintion/description than it does about the actual bibilical description of a place called Hell.

Dave

capnkirk · 03-09-2004, 10:54 AM

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote some time back which might shed some light on the "history" of the concept of Hell in Judaism and Xtianity. Contrary to popular belief, neither Satan nor an afterlife were a part of Judaism for any of the well-known OT characters, Not Abraham, not Moses, not David, not Solomon, nor any of their contemporaries. These concepts were acquired from the native religion of their Babylonian captors:

Quote:

....Absolutely none of these elements were present in Hebrew religion before the Babylonian Exile. The world is governed solely by Yahweh; evil in the world is solely the product of human actions—there is no principle of evil among the Hebrews before the Exile. The afterlife is simply a House of Dust called Sheol in which the soul lasts for only a brief time. There is no talk or conception of an end of time or history, or of a world beyond this one. After the Exile, however, popular religion among the Judeans and the Jews of the Diaspora adopts several innovations from Persian Zoroastrianism:

Dualism: After the Exile, the Hebrews adopt a concept of a more or less dualistic universe, in which all good and right comes from Yahweh, while all evil arises from a personified principle of evil (Satan).
Eschatology and Apocalypticism: Popular Jewish religion begins to form an elaborate theology of the end of time, in which a deliverer would defeat once and for all the forces of evil and unrighteousness.
Messianism: Concurrent with the new eschatology, there is much talk of a deliverer who is called messiah, or anointed one. In Hebrew culture, only the head priest and the king were anointed, so this messiah often combined the functions of both religious and military leader.
Otherworldliness: Popular Judaism adopts an elaborate afterlife. Since justice does not seem to occur in this world, it is only logical that it will occur in another world. The afterlife becomes the place where good is rewarded and evil eternally punished.

So, as you can see, both the afterlife and the concept of Satan date from about 500 BCE, and thus represent fairly new additions to Judeo-Xtian theology.

For students of history, it sorta makes the whole discussion of the properties of Hell moot.

Mageth · 03-09-2004, 11:30 AM

In my reading this weekend, I came across the comment that, if (the author of) Matthew hadn't written his gospel, then the fire-and-brimstone preachers wouldn't have much to talk about. Of the Gospels, it is the one that pictures Jesus as talking a lot about hell. Hell is mentioned elsewhere in the NT, but generally not with the strength as shown in Matthew.

And I noticed that the quoted scriptures on this thread about hell are, so far, all from...Matthew!

Other writers of the NT do not really portray Hell in the "eternal torture" sense as is done in Matthew. At first thought, my questions are: why did the author of Matthew think hell was such an important subject? To what audience was he writing? And why did the other Gospel writers, or most of the other NT writers, not expound on Jesus' alleged teaching on hell?

Mageth · 03-09-2004, 11:33 AM

BTW, Elaine Pagels, IIRC, touches on the development of the concept of Hell (and Satan, and Evil) in Judeo-Christian theology in her books The Origin of Satan and Adam, Eve, and the Serpent.

Marduk · 03-09-2004, 04:23 PM

"Other writers of the NT do not really portray Hell in the "eternal torture" sense as is done in Matthew"

that's for sure, I did a word search on the Gospels, it seems John never heard of the place since the word hell did not show up in John and ony twice in Mark.

Doctor X · 03-09-2004, 04:29 PM

Soon, you will all know . . . because you are ALL GOING to

HELL!!!

Have a nice day!

--J.D.

blt to go · 03-09-2004, 04:45 PM

Actually, Luke gives a visual of Hades:

Quote:

LU 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Lu 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

This would describe an actual place of torment. (It has been noted that the fact Jesus used actual names would indicate it is not a parable, but meant to be an actual story.)

Revelation indicates it is an actual Lake of Fire:

Quote:

Re 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever

Assuming the events in Revelation have not occured, this would descirbe a place, "lake of fire" which is typically depicted as "Hell" as currently being empty. The first people in are as described as above.

Eventually, everyone gets the toss:

Quote:

Re 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

Gawen · 03-09-2004, 06:19 PM

I have heard that Mt. Vesuvius was 'the' lake of fire....but I can't remember where I heard it from.

Amlodhi · 03-09-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X

Soon, you will all know . . . because you are ALL GOING to

HELL!!!

Ah Doc, unfortunately, I already have. I'm only 51 yrs. old, but I haven't been gentle.

As my father used to say, "If I'd known I was going to live so long, I'd've taken better care of myself."

Namaste'

Amlodhi

03-09-2004, 05:16 AM	#1
happytime Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 25	Hell I've been wondering about hell. Recently I've been apart of a discussion on another board and some say hell was meant as a place of torture while another says it's merely means a grave. One passage I found thats seems to support a place of torture is, Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." I haven't read the whole bible, only bits and pieces but it is on my reading list. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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03-09-2004, 11:30 AM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In my reading this weekend, I came across the comment that, if (the author of) Matthew hadn't written his gospel, then the fire-and-brimstone preachers wouldn't have much to talk about. Of the Gospels, it is the one that pictures Jesus as talking a lot about hell. Hell is mentioned elsewhere in the NT, but generally not with the strength as shown in Matthew. And I noticed that the quoted scriptures on this thread about hell are, so far, all from...Matthew! Other writers of the NT do not really portray Hell in the "eternal torture" sense as is done in Matthew. At first thought, my questions are: why did the author of Matthew think hell was such an important subject? To what audience was he writing? And why did the other Gospel writers, or most of the other NT writers, not expound on Jesus' alleged teaching on hell?

03-09-2004, 11:33 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	BTW, Elaine Pagels, IIRC, touches on the development of the concept of Hell (and Satan, and Evil) in Judeo-Christian theology in her books The Origin of Satan and Adam, Eve, and the Serpent.

03-09-2004, 04:23 PM	#6
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Other writers of the NT do not really portray Hell in the "eternal torture" sense as is done in Matthew" that's for sure, I did a word search on the Gospels, it seems John never heard of the place since the word hell did not show up in John and ony twice in Mark.

03-09-2004, 04:29 PM	#7
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Soon, you will all know . . . because you are ALL GOING to HELL!!! Have a nice day! --J.D.

03-09-2004, 06:19 PM	#9
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	I have heard that Mt. Vesuvius was 'the' lake of fire....but I can't remember where I heard it from.

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