Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-21-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

This is where one must consult the Greek. There is no way around it. If one does not know Greek, one must consult those who do (lexicons, commentaries, and so forth).

I doubt the following will have any impact on aa5874, but for those who like to learn stuff, here goes. Mark 6.3a:

Is not [ουχ] this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not [ουκ] his sisters here with us?

Including the word ου (which means no or not and is spelled ουκ when it comes before a nonaspirated vowel and ουχ when it comes before an aspirated vowel) in a question turns that question into one which expects an affirmative answer. Had the author used the other Greek word for no or not (μη), the anticipated answer would be negative. Had the author wished to avoid anticipating any answer at all, he would not have used any word for no or not in the question.

IOW, Mark portrays the Nazareth crowd as affirming (with a rhetorical question) that Mary was the mother of Jesus, that he had brothers, and that he had sisters, and he never denies that affirmation; indeed, he further affirms that Jesus does have a mother and brothers in Mark 3.31.

Ben.

Are you claimimg that the translators of the KJV did not know Greek as well as you?

You have introduced a serious problem, but you know Greek, you may be able to solve it.

Which Greek word for "NOT" did the author of gMatthew use?

Mark 6.3: Is NOT this the carpenter.......?

Matthew 13.55: Is NOT this the carpenter's son? .....

Please don't tell me it is oux.

Here's the text of Mt 13:55.

οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ τ�*κτονος υἱός; οὐχ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ λ�*γεται Μαριὰμ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Σίμων καὶ Ἰούδας;

Please don't tell us that οὐκ is not οὐχ -- unless, of course, you want to further embarrass yourself.

Jeffrey

spamandham · 08-21-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

As to the question of why a person is identified by his/her children rather than by his/her parents,

In addition to the possibility you suggested to this question, I would throw out some more possibilities:

- There were pre-existing stories related to the children. The Gospel audience would already be expected to be familiar with them, and now Mark has added some new characters to the story by showing their relationship to previously known characters (real or legendary)

- Mary was a well known character of special significance - perhaps a mutation of Cybele (and a phonetically close pun of Marius?). Could Galilaeans be a pun on Galli/Gallos (ecstatic ritually castrated followers of Cybele)?

- An intentional reversal of norms

aa5874 · 08-21-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Are you claimimg that the translators of the KJV did not know Greek as well as you?

You have introduced a serious problem, but you know Greek, you may be able to solve it.

Which Greek word for "NOT" did the author of gMatthew use?

Mark 6.3: Is NOT this the carpenter.......?

Matthew 13.55: Is NOT this the carpenter's son? .....

Please don't tell me it is oux.

Here's the text of Mt 13:55.

οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ τ�*κτονος υἱός; οὐχ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ λ�*γεται Μαριὰμ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Σίμων καὶ Ἰούδας;

Please don't tell us that οὐκ is not οὐχ -- unless, of course, you want to further embarrass yourself.

Jeffrey

And now show the people the text of Mark 6.3, and then highlight the Greek word for "not".

You know Greek. Embarass me.

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-21-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Here's the text of Mt 13:55.

οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ τ�*κτονος υἱός; οὐχ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ λ�*γεται Μαριὰμ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Σίμων καὶ Ἰούδας;

Please don't tell us that οὐκ is not οὐχ -- unless, of course, you want to further embarrass yourself.

Jeffrey

And now show the people the text of Mark 6.3,

Umm .. who are you to give me orders? And why on earth should I follow then?

Quote:

and then highlight the Greek word for "not".

I have already given you the word.

Quote:

You know Greek.

And you do not, as is painfully obvious almost every time when you kane claims about what a NT text says.

Jeffrey

Toto · 08-21-2008, 07:08 PM

What is aa5874's point - is it a question of Mark using "carpenter" and Matt "carpenter's son"?

Does this imply some difference in the question, or the word for "not"?

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-21-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_cave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

I'm sure you would. But I'm not the one making a claim here. I'm just trying to determine why we should trust your judgment about what Mark was and was not likely to do with respect to names.

So is your claim about what is likely and unlikely vis a vis Hellenistic authors' naming conventions and practices an informed one or not? Is it grounded in a study of those conventions or not?

The fact that you've tried to switch the burden of proof to me says that the answer is no to both questions. But I'd be happy to be shown that this is not the case.

Jeffrey

I'm only trying to give you as much burden of proof as you're asking for.

Umm, what? I'm asking for your evidence. And you certainly haven't given what I've asked for. Do you have any evidence or not?

Quote:

I freely admit I don't know enough about naming conventions in first- and second-century Greek literature to know with certainty if the naming of Mary in Mark is unusual or not.

I didn't ask you if you knew "enough" about conventions. I asked if you knew anything at all about them and how you came by this knowledge.

Quote:

Though from my limited knowledge, I can't think of any comparable examples.

So you do have some knowledge of Hellenistic naming conventions? If so, were' back to square one and I ask again, how did you come by this knowledge? What have you read on this topic? How many Hellenistic works in which authors are intent to identify the characters in their narrative have you actually read?

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Can you?

Whether I can or can't isn't the issue. It's whether you can back up your clais about what is and what is not likely for Hellenistic writers to do in the matter of naming people.

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But I can very easily turn the tables: why should I trust your judgment if you can't say more than I can?

What claim have

Quote:

I

made or judgment have I expressed here on the matter?

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Thus, all we have proven here is that there we personally can arrive at no positive conclusion with regards to the naming of Mary in the gospel of Mark. The only claim I make is that it looks problematic to me, in terms of logic and composition.

Whose logic? That of Hellenistic writers? And whose rules composition? Yours or theirs?

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 08-21-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What is aa5874's point - is it a question of Mark using "carpenter" and Matt "carpenter's son"?

Does this imply some difference in the question, or the word for "not"?

You are probably not following the thread.

Who was Mary, the mother of the carpenter or the mother of the carpenter's son? Are these the same person or NOT?

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-21-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Embarass me.

No need. You've been doing a bang up job in this regard for as long as you've been posting.

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 08-21-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Embarass me.

No need. You've been doing a bang up job in this regard for as long as you've been posting.

Jeffrey

Sometimes you amuse me .

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-21-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What is aa5874's point - is it a question of Mark using "carpenter" and Matt "carpenter's son"?

Does this imply some difference in the question, or the word for "not"?

You are probably not following the thread.

Who was Mary, the mother of the carpenter or the mother of the carpenter's son? Are these the same person or NOT.

If he's not following the thread it's because you are now now shifting things.

What Toto is confused about is how you are dealing with responses to your claim that in Mk. 6:3 '[t]he author of Mark did not say that Mary [was] the mother of James, Joses, Simon and Judas", since he, according to you, "asked a question which he NEVER really answered".

In other words, the thread had nothing to do with whether Mary was the mother of the carpenter or of the carpenter's son, let alone with whether one referred to as a carpenter could not also be a carpenter's son -- especially in the milieu that you know so much about, i.e., first century Palestine, where sons never took up their father's occupation.

Jeffrey

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08-21-2008, 07:08 PM	#105
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What is aa5874's point - is it a question of Mark using "carpenter" and Matt "carpenter's son"? Does this imply some difference in the question, or the word for "not"?

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