Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John A. Broussard · 03-11-2005, 10:09 AM

Since I have mostly second-hand acquaintance with the bible, I would like some help from those of you who are more familiar with it. What I'm looking for are as many examples as possible of "new" interpretations of dubious biblical incidents by those believing in biblical inerrancy. E.g., what's the latest most widely accepted fundie explanation for Joshua stopping the sun. Wasn't there also something about the angels sounding their trumpets from the "four corners of the earth?" I imagine the four corners are now generally regarded as being simply figures of speech, but that's what I'm looking for--old views taken at face value in contrast to entirely new interpretations now widely accepted by fundies.

offa · 03-13-2005, 02:40 AM

Well, I have pondered about "the day the sun stood still". Obviously it is an intercalation. It's just like the expertise of this board and the Leap Year. When Joshua was written they had a 364 day calendar and a 17 1/2 day addition every 14 years called the Veadar. When they had the Veadar did the sun stand still?

offa

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR · 03-13-2005, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Wasn't there also something about the angels sounding their trumpets from the "four corners of the earth?" I imagine the four corners are now generally regarded as being simply figures of speech, but that's what I'm looking for--old views taken at face value in contrast to entirely new interpretations now widely accepted by fundies.

At the time, man believed the Earth to be flat, shaped as a square or rectangle. So God let the person see the Earth as flat so they would not become confused and dismiss God's message to them as a hallucination, as one fundy told me!

Click --->here<--- for other "answers" and denials by our Christian believers concerning for corners.

This has some "answers" as far as the sun stopping.

John A. Broussard · 03-13-2005, 12:34 PM

Thanks to Offa and Dissident Agrressor for your help.

To Offa: I'm still not certain how a different calendar system would explain a sun stoppage.

To DA: Good suggested sites. The notion of "language of appearance" isn't one I've encountered before. Evidently, the argument is that the bible was written to be understood by the people of that day, so existing beliefs had to be catered to in order for scripture to be understood. The implication, of course, is that the writers knew better.

That's intriguing since it does seem to be a challenge to inerrancy.

judge · 03-13-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offa

Well, I have pondered about "the day the sun stood still". Obviously it is an intercalation. It's just like the expertise of this board and the Leap Year. When Joshua was written they had a 364 day calendar and a 17 1/2 day addition every 14 years called the Veadar. When they had the Veadar did the sun stand still?

offa

A similar type of idea was proposed almost 100 years ago by Sir william Drummond in his work (he didn't dare publish it at the time) Oedipus Judaicus, allegory in the Old Testament

Quote:

William Drummond’s Oedipus Judaicus provides a surprisingly bold and learned allegorical commentary on the Old Testament. The many subjects covered include comparisons between differing zodiacs (the Nile itself was taken as a symbol of the starry heavens), interpretations of the names of ancient kings within the Old Testament, irrefutable conclusions about the mysterious contents of the Ark of the Covenant, and the portrayal of the downfall of the Walls of Jericho as an inventive parable for the reform of the lunar calendar.

Initially printed for private circulation in 1811, this classic work is now regarded as a rich source of reference and clearly anticipates more recent findings. An avowed theist, both the author’s manner of presentation and his heavy assault on the entrenched thinking of some of his contemporaries aroused heated controversy. Yet this book still persists in bearing its readers towards realms of much untold and original discovery.

judge · 03-13-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

At the time, man believed the Earth to be flat, shaped as a square or rectangle. .

I have seen it suggested that the term "four corners of the earth" refers to the two equnoxes and solstices's. The earth was concieved not only geographically but in terms of "time" as well. The world was "framed" by the four "markers" each year. Summer solstice, autumn equnox, winter solstice and spring equinox, making four corners.

John A. Broussard · 03-13-2005, 02:41 PM

I've now encountered several views of what "corners" actually meant back at the time the passage was written. Many thanks for the suggestions.

What I would like to know, now, is what a learned reader of that document would then have assumed was meant by "corners." Would he/she immediately recognize them as the cardinal points of the compass? The solstices and equinoxes? As another way of saying "everywhere"? Or would the view have been that the earth was flat, square and had four corners?

I'm also looking for more of these early "facts" that are now regarded differently by believers in biblical inerrancy.

offa · 03-13-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Thanks to Offa and Dissident Agrressor for your help.

To Offa: I'm still not certain how a different calendar system would explain a sun stoppage.

That's because the sun does not stop and never did. In order to correct the calendar they have to add more days while the sun, figuretivey, waits for the calendar to catch up. There is a story in King's II about a sundial of some sorts with a prophecy attached to it. A simple intercalation is changed into a miracle that has confused scolars of olde.

offa

Chili · 03-13-2005, 08:07 PM

In Catholicism the sun stops twice in every year. The first time is when morning does not follow the night on which Christ was born and the second time is when evening does not follow the day on which Jesus rose from the death. It has nothing to do with the alleged movement of the sun but with the apparent illumination of our day by the sun -- which obviously is not true if darkness prevailed at Christmas until after the second night, or if daylight prevailed at Easter until the end of the second day.

It is just a play on the illusion of sense perception that needs a mind to interpret the message received by the senses. Ie, we look with our eyes but see with our mind.

funinspace · 03-14-2005, 08:18 AM

My favorite notion to explain Joshua's solar object demands came from jdlongmire (I'm not sure if it was his own idea or got it elsewhere). A time bubble around Canaan, kept them out of sync during the night the sun stood still. Just like out of a host of Sci-Fi books. It also makes it virtually impossible to argue against. Who's to say an all powerful god can't play with time…kind of a neat package. I have no clue if this is considered a reasonable defense in fundy circles.

03-11-2005, 10:09 AM	#1
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	Biblical interpretations: Old and New Since I have mostly second-hand acquaintance with the bible, I would like some help from those of you who are more familiar with it. What I'm looking for are as many examples as possible of "new" interpretations of dubious biblical incidents by those believing in biblical inerrancy. E.g., what's the latest most widely accepted fundie explanation for Joshua stopping the sun. Wasn't there also something about the angels sounding their trumpets from the "four corners of the earth?" I imagine the four corners are now generally regarded as being simply figures of speech, but that's what I'm looking for--old views taken at face value in contrast to entirely new interpretations now widely accepted by fundies.

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03-13-2005, 02:40 AM	#2
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Well, I have pondered about "the day the sun stood still". Obviously it is an intercalation. It's just like the expertise of this board and the Leap Year. When Joshua was written they had a 364 day calendar and a 17 1/2 day addition every 14 years called the Veadar. When they had the Veadar did the sun stand still? offa

03-13-2005, 12:34 PM	#4
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	Thanks to Offa and Dissident Agrressor for your help. To Offa: I'm still not certain how a different calendar system would explain a sun stoppage. To DA: Good suggested sites. The notion of "language of appearance" isn't one I've encountered before. Evidently, the argument is that the bible was written to be understood by the people of that day, so existing beliefs had to be catered to in order for scripture to be understood. The implication, of course, is that the writers knew better. That's intriguing since it does seem to be a challenge to inerrancy.

03-13-2005, 02:41 PM	#7
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	I've now encountered several views of what "corners" actually meant back at the time the passage was written. Many thanks for the suggestions. What I would like to know, now, is what a learned reader of that document would then have assumed was meant by "corners." Would he/she immediately recognize them as the cardinal points of the compass? The solstices and equinoxes? As another way of saying "everywhere"? Or would the view have been that the earth was flat, square and had four corners? I'm also looking for more of these early "facts" that are now regarded differently by believers in biblical inerrancy.

03-13-2005, 08:07 PM	#9
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	In Catholicism the sun stops twice in every year. The first time is when morning does not follow the night on which Christ was born and the second time is when evening does not follow the day on which Jesus rose from the death. It has nothing to do with the alleged movement of the sun but with the apparent illumination of our day by the sun -- which obviously is not true if darkness prevailed at Christmas until after the second night, or if daylight prevailed at Easter until the end of the second day. It is just a play on the illusion of sense perception that needs a mind to interpret the message received by the senses. Ie, we look with our eyes but see with our mind.

03-14-2005, 08:18 AM	#10
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	My favorite notion to explain Joshua's solar object demands came from jdlongmire (I'm not sure if it was his own idea or got it elsewhere). A time bubble around Canaan, kept them out of sync during the night the sun stood still. Just like out of a host of Sci-Fi books. It also makes it virtually impossible to argue against. Who's to say an all powerful god can't play with time…kind of a neat package. I have no clue if this is considered a reasonable defense in fundy circles.

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