Ed

Yes, but a person that seriously contemplates murder and then goes thru with it is providing evidence that they are not a true Christian. Therefore they are in danger of going to hell.

That only applies to children under the age of accountability.

Well actually God has promised that if you raise a child based on His laws and teachings then there is a high probability that they will become believers.

Jack the Bodiless

Ed, if you discovered a surviving family of Amalekites in the 21st century...

...would you murder them?

...what should a "true Christian" do to them?

sashang

It's unlikely that a modern day Christian will commit murder and at the same time believe they are good Christians. This is because their innate moral sense transcends that which the bible imposes. However, I think the point I was making still stands - a true Christian will not go to hell for murder. They aren't even in danger of going to hell. This fact is a result contemporary Christian theology.

What's the age of accountability?

Yes. I don't doubt you here but please can you provide a blblical reference? Note that this also applies to other religions. People who grow up in a family where Hinduism is the predominant religion become Hindus. Similarly with Christianity.

Crucifiction

With help from the Skeptics Annotated Bible, I did a write up of various cruelties endorsed or enforced by the Judeo-Christian God. I'm a newcomer to this kinds of debates, so if all of this has been mentioned before, please bear with me. I'd like to point out some things God commanded which show an absolute lack of morals on his part:

First, here is the link to my write-up: http://www.religionisbullshit.com/fo...p?showtopic=64


The first thing that struck me was 2 Kings 2:23-24-

"23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."- KJV

For mocking Elishas bald head, fourty two children were eaten by she-bears. Doesn't this contradict Mt.18:14, where Jesus said "It is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish"? True, it was mean to mock somebody for being bald, but that by no means demands the children to be eaten up by bears.

Another thing that caught my attention was 1 Kings 35-36, which reads as follows:

"35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.
36 Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him."

Because the man didn't want to hit another man, he deserved to be devoured by a lion?

1 Samuel 14:20 reads:
"And Saul and all the people that were with him assembled themselves, and they came to the battle: and, behold, every man's sword was against his fellow, and there was a very great discomfiture."

Doesn't God tamper with the Philistines free will by causing them to attack each other?

One other thing I found extremely cruel, even serial killer-like, was Num. 25 1-5:

"1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor."

I understand that God wanted the people that had worshipped idols killed {Which still isn't very moral, but it's no different than any of the other massacres he caused}, but he wanted the bodies strung up in front of him? Why does this remind me so much of Ed Gein hanging up one of his decapitated victims in order to skin them like a deer?

I don't see why God gets to get away scot free with his heinous atrocities, while ordering humans to refrain from doing what He does. Is it just because he's the biggest, baddest motha on the block? Then that makes him the biggest bully in history. Is it because he has to answer to a universal sense of right and wrong? Then he ain't omnipotent. Does he just get pleasure from seeing decapitated heads strung up "before him"? That makes him mentally ill.

:banghead:

Jack the Bodiless

Another example of God's "morality":
So God killed Uzzah for trying to preserve the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a cart.

This story is apparently quite important, because the Bible repeats it:
The accounts don't agree about WHERE this happened, but an apologist would presumably argue that Nachon and Chidon were joint-owners of the threshingfloor, or some similar fudge.

What's interesting is that God's anger is barely containable. He will lash out at anyone who touches his sacred container, regardless of their motives. Transporting the container is like transporting high-grade nuclear waste, or nitroglycerin. And David fully understands that God was wrong to act as he did.

Ed

No, I don't know much about the evolution of the hebrew language. But I DO know that the evolution of the hebrew language is not the same thing as the evolution of the Hebrew alphabet.

highpreistess

the scholars wrote in Aramaic....

Ed

[QUOTE=Jack the Bodiless]

<deleted section dealt with earlier in this thread>

Hardly. You cannot attack a moral position without explaining your own. Otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on. This is basic to establishing a rational argument.

Knowing the nature of men, they would want as many as they can get. Again you have yet to explain why it is not ok. But of course, your accusation is a non sequitor.

I never denied that it can mean those things, but in the biblical context of creation it does not because we see in other verses on creation God creates the universe ex nihlo. He doesn't just separate it. See Psalm 19.

Jack the Bodiless

Ed:
Correction: you were defeated.
I will take this as an admission from you that changing "Midianite" to "German" DOES turn a "right" into a "wrong" in YOUR system of morality (which is the one we're discussing).

In other words: double standards are OK, and there is no consistent morality in your Universe.
...So you think it IS OK to rape a woman if you slaughter her relatives first!

I never expected to see such an admission on an open Internet forum.

It is a pity that I can't have you arrested to stop you acting on this "morality". I guess I'll just have to keep trying to deconvert you, to save your future victims.
Of course, Psalms is more recent than Genesis. So it doesn't count as proof of what the author of Genesis meant.

...But I have learned to "have faith" that you would get the Bible wrong in any case. So I looked up Psalm 19 anyhow.

There is no mention of "creation ex nihilo" in Psalm 19.

It only talks about God's "handiwork".

When, exactly, ARE you going to start reading the Bible, Ed?

Ed

Not trivial considering that it is evidence that the ancient hebrews knew that men were psychologically different from women thousands of years before science 'discovered" that fact.

See above.

Beat them at what? They didn't have computer moderators and admins in ancient times.

So was yours.

No, the reverse. And because they had priestesses they were led down the wrong spiritual path.

Its called research, duuuh.