brighid

If God's character is the source of morality his actions will be the vehicle through which he expresses that character (or the actions he commands humans to take.)

So, let's test your ideas.

Do you feel it's moral for an invading army to round up all the virgin females of the people they have conquered, to keep for their own (to do as they wish with), but to kill everything else? Including pregnant women by ripping the unborn from their wombs?

Do you think it is moral to publically execute a son for drunkenness?

If you had the power would it be moral of you to harden the heart of your enemy so that you could kill all the first born of his family and his neighbors in order that he give you want you want?

Is hatred a positive moral?

Brighid

Ed

God never did any of these things as you have described them and all of them are not moral except the last one depending on what you hate. Hating wrongdoing is not immoral. So your point is?

brighid

I am sorry I was unable to respond, but I have had to deal with major server issues ...

Anyway, because of this I am seriously backlogged I won't be able to respond as I would like, but if I have time I will do my best to provide you with chapter and verse. If you are interested in reading for yourself about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart please do a search at : http://www.blueletterbible.com. Type "harden heart" and read the story of Passover. You will indeed fine NUMEROUS references that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart so he would not let the Jews go, so that he could continue to visit the deadly plagues upon Egypt and eventually kill all the first born.

I will address the other points as I have time.

My point is that God has done ALL the things I have listed above. It is amazing, as a Christian, you do not know your Bible better. My point is also to illustrate that God's character is reflected in his actions and if his actions are not moral, than he is not, IN FACT, moral and it would be irresponsible to derive ones moral foundation from a deity that takes action (thereby demonstrating his character) that run counter to all that is claimed of him, and all that decent and humane.

I would say that "hardening" the Pharaoh's heart SO HE WOULD disobey God's commands through Moses and Aaron is pretty damn dispicable, and from that hardening of his heart (be sure to not only read the verses with that phrase but also the pre and proceeding verses and chapters to get the full impact) kill innocent people ... well in this day and age that individual would be tried for crimes against humanity.

Brighid

Ed

Pharoah initiated the process by hardening his own heart ten times during the first five plagues. God has said that his mercy does not last forever, we are only given a limited time to rebel against him, then your end comes. If you continue to hate God and rebel against him you will enter a spiral of which you can never come out of and that is what happened to pharoah. God caused that spiral to eventually become permanent. He had many chances to turn back with the warnings of the plagues.

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brig: I will address the other points as I have time. My point is that God has done ALL the things I have listed above. It is amazing, as a Christian, you do not know your Bible better. My point is also to illustrate that God's character is reflected in his actions and if his actions are not moral, than he is not, IN FACT, moral and it would be irresponsible to derive ones moral foundation from a deity that takes action (thereby demonstrating his character) that run counter to all that is claimed of him, and all that decent and humane.

Your description of the biblical events is so distorted they are hardly recognizable. How do you determine what is decent and humane?

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brig: I would say that "hardening" the Pharaoh's heart SO HE WOULD disobey God's commands through Moses and Aaron is pretty damn dispicable, and from that hardening of his heart (be sure to not only read the verses with that phrase but also the pre and proceeding verses and chapters to get the full impact) kill innocent people ... well in this day and age that individual would be tried for crimes against humanity. Brighid

See above about the hardening. As an aside, why are "crimes" against humanity "bad"?

brighid

Reread those chapters. God begins the hardening process not Pharaoh, and he continues, time after time to harden Pharaohs heart. Furthermore, hardening his heart even ONCE in order to exact some sort of revenge takes away the free will of Pharaoh, and therefore he is unable to avoid any consequences for his people and his land. Hardening the heart of Pharaoh once is far too many for an allegedly perfectly moral, all good, loving, compassionate God.

Pharaoh did not know this Judaic God and we simply cannot compare what we know today with what Pharoah allegedly knew back then. Rebelling against a warmongering God who reigns down deadly plagues after hardening the heart of a man so he can kill all his first born in order to "let his people go" is morally abhorent. God could easily have "softened" Pharaohs heart and all the death, mayhem and cruelty could have been avoided. That seems more in line with a "loving" God, and the former seems more in line with a God unworthy of worship because of his abusive and cruel use of power.

No sir, I think your interpretation of the biblical events is so distorted by your indoctrination that you cannot plainly see what is before your eyes. The same way any reasonable person determines what is decent and humane. It is easy to examine a situation to determine what is decent and humane, at least for those of us with a conscience. How would I want to be treated in a similar circumstance is one question I would ask? Is there a peaceful solution to a dilemma? I value human life rather highly. I feel each human life is precious, and unique and therefore I must act in accordance with that thinking. Would I want someone, God or man, to harden my heart, thereby removing my free will, so that he could have an excuse to kill my son? Absolutely not. Do I find the killing of innocent people to prove one has power (not unlike what the terrorists have done all over the world) to be an acceptable option of moral people? Absolutely not. I find it inconceiveable that a moral perfect God could be less moral than I, myself am.

Ed

No, pharoah initiated it in Exodus 7:13. God predicted that He would eventually harden his heart. Rebellion against God is similar to an addiction, once you start doing it then it becomes harder and harder to stop till eventually you cannot stop and you do lose your free will. God just sped up a natural process in order to rescue his people from slavery.

Quote:

brig: Pharaoh did not know this Judaic God and we simply cannot compare what we know today with what Pharoah allegedly knew back then.

No, a pharoah would do a great deal of research on a very large minority living in his nation with a different religion. He most probably knew a great deal about Yahweh and like you he didn't like Him either.

Quote:

brig: Rebelling against a warmongering God who reigns down deadly plagues after hardening the heart of a man so he can kill all his first born in order to "let his people go" is morally abhorent. God could easily have "softened" Pharaohs heart and all the death, mayhem and cruelty could have been avoided. That seems more in line with a "loving" God, and the former seems more in line with a God unworthy of worship because of his abusive and cruel use of power.

Softening his heart would have violated his free will. Pharaoh did not like God or his people. As I stated above pharoah initiated the hardening, see above.

Quote:

Ed: Your description of the biblical events is so distorted they are hardly recognizable. How do you determine what is decent and humane? brig: No sir, I think your interpretation of the biblical events is so distorted by your indoctrination that you cannot plainly see what is before your eyes. The same way any reasonable person determines what is decent and humane. It is easy to examine a situation to determine what is decent and humane, at least for those of us with a conscience. How would I want to be treated in a similar circumstance is one question I would ask? Is there a peaceful solution to a dilemma? I value human life rather highly. I feel each human life is precious, and unique and therefore I must act in accordance with that thinking. Would I want someone, God or man, to harden my heart, thereby removing my free will, so that he could have an excuse to kill my son? Absolutely not. Do I find the killing of innocent people to prove one has power (not unlike what the terrorists have done all over the world) to be an acceptable option of moral people? Absolutely not. I find it inconceiveable that a moral perfect God could be less moral than I, myself am.

Just because you value human life highly does not mean that it actually has high value. Why is human life precious? Why not dog life or cow life? You feel that human life is precious but Hitler felt that only Aryan life was precious since both of you are basing your decisions on feelings your position is no more valid than his. Only Christianity provides a rational and objective basis for valuing human life. God did not kill innocent people, none of them were innocent. All humans are born with a desire to rebel against God. And the penalty for rebellion against the King of the Universe is immediate death. So actually God was being gracious to them by letting them live for a time. Actually they deserved to die the minute they were born.

brighid

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son (Israel) go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

And in Chapter Ex 5 the Pharaoh does not let the Israelites go to pray and sacrifice and takes away the “straw” for brick making. Therefore, it is as God said it would be – and “he (Pharaoh) shall not let the people go” because “(God) I will harden his heart.”

Ex 6:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (Ex 6:11) Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Ex 7:2) Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart , and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

And the signs and the plagues begin …

Ex 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart , that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Ex 7:14) And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart [is] hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

The waters were smitted and all the fish died. The Egyptians could not drink from the waters and …

Ex 7: 22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

And then came the plague of frogs …

Ex 8: 8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD

Ex 8: 15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.


And the plague of lice …

Ex 8:19 This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

And then the plague of flies …

Ex 8:25 And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God in the land … (Ex 8:28) And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away: intreat for me.

Ex 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (This is the first mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart)

And the plague which killed all the cattle (and all livestock) …

Ex 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened , and he did not let the people go.

And the plague of boils …

Ex 9: 12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

And the plague of hail came and fire mingled with hail … (and the hail shall kill all the men and beasts of the field)

Ex 9: 27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked.

Ex 9:28 Intreat the LORD (for [it is] enough) that there be no [more] mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.

Ex 9:35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened , neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (end of the chapter)

Ex 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him.

And then came the plague of locusts … and Pharaoh again lets the Israelites go … and the Lord ended the plague of locusts … but then AGAIN

Ex 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart , so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

And three days of darkness came over the land of Egypt … and Pharaoh again released the Israelites

And YET AGAIN

Ex 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
And the Angel of Death came to visit all the first born of Egypt after the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart …

Ex 11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

Ex 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that [is] behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

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As you will see in the above quoted passages God hardened Pharaoh's heart in Chapter 4 and again in Chapter 5, and early in Chapter 7 (specifically Ex 7:3) God again hardens Pharaoh's heart (and yes, as predicted because God said he would.)

It isn't until Ex 8:23 that there is any mention of Pharaoh hardening his "own" heart, but curiously the text reads "at this time also" but there is no previous mention of this taking place SPECIFICALLY in the preceeding 4 chapters every mention of "hardening" comes directly from God.

It is quite clear, when one takes a care and complete reading of these chapters that the LORD time and and time again, deliberately hardens the heart of the Pharaoh so he can repeatedly inflict pain, suffering and death upon the Egyptians.

A morally perfect deity should be incapable of such things. It is morally repugnant to manipulate a person into doing another's bidding in order to effect a desired end, especially one that results in the deaths of innocent people and animals. Given that this God is allegedly all powerful HE could have and SHOULD HAVE made the choice to "soften" Pharaoh's heart so that not a single living organism had to perish.

There is no proof that Pharaoh did any research if one reviews Exodus. Early on he even asks Moses who is this God of his? His "magicians" could perform similar tricks and the entire tit for tat exposition in Exodus is nothing more than a pissing contest between the Judaic God and the Egyptian Gods.

I certainly dislike the character of God as portrayed in the OT, so you are correct in that point. I am not sure how any person with a conscience could like the character of God as portrayed in the OT. I certainly wouldn't worship a deity who seems more interested in ascerting His power of people, and who, through directives to His Chosen People has a penchant for murder, genocide and other cruelties.



There is no evidence for this in Exodus. Time and time again Pharaoh let the Israelites go to worship their God, but each time the LORD hardened his heart so, as predicted, Pharaoh would not "let his people go.' I cannot lose my free will, unless, like Pharaoh, God takes it from me.

God certainly did not set-up a natural process in order to rescue his people from slavery. There is actually no evidence, outside of Exodus, that the Jewish people were actually enslaved. The Egyptian record has not such mention and they were meticulous about keeping records. You think someone would have noticed nearly a million people exiting Egypt (at a time when the population was not even that largely ironically.)

If God "sets something up" like he set up Pharaoh to take the fall, it is not longer natural. It did not happen as it would have without interference from the deity.

And what did "hardening his heart" do? Give him MORE free will? Reread the text. The LORD hardened his heart, and continued to do so chapter after chapter, plague after plague, right up until the end when in his last act of hardening he sent the Angel of Death to the land of Egypt to murder all of her first born, all those innocent men, women and children ...



It seems God places a high value on human life when He commands though shall not kill. He seems to think it precious enough that He created it so that life might worship, adore and obey him (for the sake of argument.) He set forth a whole holy book with many laws, rules and regulations about human life. he even commanded you to love your neighor as God has loved you. Allegedly He loved us so much he sent his "only begotten" son to suffer death under Crucifixion, die, descend into Hell, ascend into Heaven, so that all of mankind could be forgiven of their sins. So, if you are religious it seems odd to me that you don't value human life given the directives from your own God.

However, I do not need a God to value my own life, or the life of other human beings. I find merit in treating others I would desire to be treated. Do you want to be killed? Of course you do not. I would assume you want to live. Would you want your mother, father, brother, sister, wife, child, pastor, or close friend murdered by a homicidal maniac? I doubt you do.

Would you want to be tortured, mutilated, have a limb amputated or be sent to the ovens of a concentration camp because you weren't of the right ethnic or religious background so that you would be incinerated?

Yes, Hitler felt that ONLY Aryan life was valuable, but to compare my position of ALL humanity possessing equal value is fallicious. It seems, in the OT, your God valued Jews more highly than others such as the Amalekties, Cannanites, etc., etc.

It matters not if all people are "innocent" or "sinful." The claim that we are all born "sinful" is irrelevant to this discussion. The discussion is whether or not your God committed the acts I have pointed out, and that this character is expressed through his actions, and if those actions can be determined to be "moral."

I feel terribly, terribly sorry for you that you have been taught that every person is deserving of death because a man and a woman in some distant Garden ate of a forbidden piece of fruit. Such thinking cripples your ability to empathize with other human beings, and honestly it cripples your ability to love your neighbor as God has loved you that he sent his only son ...

In reading the Bible I find little rational basis for valuing humanity and it certainly isn't objective. If Christianity teaches you that we are all worthless and deserving of any horrible death that your God can doll out I find no value in that. Moral people cannot find moral value in that because it is devoid of an ounce of morality.

God is not being gracious by already knowing all this is, ever was, or will be, thereby condemning every human being to death and an eternity of torture because we are all born to "rebel" against his will. It must be His will that I am an atheist and I find the OT and much of the NT to be morally repugnant, and being that he is the Master of the Universe, I cannot circumvent his will. Therefore I have no free will. If I have no free will how can a morally perfect, loving, compassionate, deity create me to be condemned to Hell?

Brighid

christ-on-a-stick

Ed wrote: Then: This does not compute.

Is it a Bad Thing ™ for God to violate our free will, or not? Always? Never? Sometimes?

You seem to be arguing for “sometimes” – sort of like God’s morality is relative.

Anyway - I've asked this before in another thread but don't recall getting a response. Let's say for the sake of argument (although the text does not support it) that Pharoah hardened his own heart first.

If there was no chance (and God being able to see the future and all) that Pharoah was going to change his mind or soften his heart, why was it *necessary* for God to "seal the deal"? Why did God feel the need to make "sure" Pharoah couldn't change his mind unless there WAS still a chance that he would?

brighid

Ed,

I challenge you to morally justify the following passages:

The destruction of Babylon

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined [unto them] shall fall by the sword.

Isa 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes ; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished

… it seems it’s okay to rape women …

Isa 13:18 [Their] bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb ; their eye shall not spare children.

and abort unborn children of one’s enemies by ripping them from the womb, and no mercy shall be shown children …

How followers of your God are to treat those of other faiths

Deu 7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Deu 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Deu 13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;

Deu 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

Deu 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And then if a follower of your God suspects others in that city as following other gods he is to …

Deu 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Deu 13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again

On conquering neighbors
Deu 20;12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

Deu 20;13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

Deu 20;14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth

Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

And in war if an Israelite sees a beautiful woman he wishes to have for his own

Deu 21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

and no matter how much she cries for her family, after you have shaved her head and clipped her nails and allowed her to wail for a month, you can rape her and make her your wife

Deu 21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

and for rebellious and drunken son’s

Deu 20:21 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu 20:22 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones

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The morally relevant questions would be:

1.) Is it morally acceptable to rip the unborn fetus from the womb of a sinning mother (who just happens to be from a different "tribe"/ "nation)? Using the Golden Rule of do unto others as you would have them do onto you would it be acceptable to rip the unborn fetus from the womb of your wife Ed?

2.) Is it morally acceptable to "ravish" or rather rape women?

3.) Is it morally acceptable to destroy the houses of worship of non-Christian people (such as was done in KristalNacht)?

4.) Is it morally permissible to search a town to flush out the non-believers and if any are found to murder every inhabitant of that town?

5.) Is it morally acceptable to take the women and children of a conquered nation for your own?

6.) Is it morally acceptable to force a woman to become your wife (thereby taking away her free will) and consumating that act with rape?

7.) Is it morally accetable to bring a disobedient or drunk son to the town square so he might be publically executed by stoning?

If you have answered YES to any of the above questions please provide reasons.

If you have found any of the above actions to be morally repugnant please explain.

Brighid

Ed

These verses are just predictions that God will harden his heart.

The KJV is a poor translation of this verse. Here is the more accurate NAS "Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." IOW pharoah had already hardened his heart to God. Pharoah used his free will to reject God's words from the beginning.


Again this is pharoah hardening his own heart.

Again the third time Pharoah hardens his own heart. God has not yet done so.

For the fourth time pharaoh hardened his own heart, see the ESV for better translation. There is no mention of God hardening his heart.

No, this is the fifth time he hardens his own heart.

Here is the first mention of God hardening pharoahs heart. This is after at least five times him doing it himself against God's people. He has therefore entered the spiral of no return and forfeited his free will. This happens when you rebel against God's laws in extreme form, ie like addictions, such as drug abuse, porn addiction and etc.

This is the end of part I of my response.