Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I don't know that for sure. I do know that Turkey is one reason why the Euphrates is running dry. They have been building on a dam since 1982 and the estimated cost is roughly 32 billion dollars. However, Turkey has agreed to release some water into the Euphrates for one month. After that, Iraq is on their own. And this will be the start of yet another major war in Iraq.

If you don't KNOW (as in have knowledge, not belief) FOR SURE, then why do you continue spouting all this stuff about the end of days?

This sounds exactly what you described as the "lunatic fringe" you claimed your fellow Christians have been living in for the past two thousand years.

How are you any different than they did?

No! You asked me if the Euphrates running dry is due to "climate change." I said I have no idea about that. I really don't know the actual cause, but I do know it's happening, and The Book of Revelations said this day would happen before the return of Christ.

When I mentioned "The lunatic fringe", I was actually talking about the idiots like Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh..etc,etc.

Dark Virtue · 09-23-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

If you don't KNOW (as in have knowledge, not belief) FOR SURE, then why do you continue spouting all this stuff about the end of days?

This sounds exactly what you described as the "lunatic fringe" you claimed your fellow Christians have been living in for the past two thousand years.

How are you any different than they did?

No! You asked me if the Euphrates running dry is due to "climate change." I said I have no idea about that. I really don't know the actual cause, but I do know it's happening, and The Book of Revelations said this day would happen before the return of Christ.

Ok, let's start from the beginning. How do you know the Euphrates water level dropping isn't just a normal climatic change that could very well reverse itself down the road? How do you know "this is it"?

Quote:

When I mentioned "The lunatic fringe", I was actually talking about the idiots like Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh..etc,etc.

Ah, that's not what I took your answer to mean, so now that we're on the same page, let me ask you again...What makes you different than any previous Christian within the past two thousand years who fervently believed they were living in the last days?

funinspace · 09-23-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

If you don't KNOW (as in have knowledge, not belief) FOR SURE, then why do you continue spouting all this stuff about the end of days?

This sounds exactly what you described as the "lunatic fringe" you claimed your fellow Christians have been living in for the past two thousand years.

How are you any different than they did?

No! You asked me if the Euphrates running dry is due to "climate change." I said I have no idea about that. I really don't know the actual cause, but I do know it's happening, and The Book of Revelations said this day would happen before the return of Christ.

When I mentioned "The lunatic fringe", I was actually talking about the idiots like Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh..etc,etc.

From Rev 16:1-12

Quote:

1 I heard a loud voice speaking from the temple to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's fury upon the earth."
2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth. Festering and ugly sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast or worshiped its image.

I didn't know the anti-Christ had already arrived...where do we sign up :Cheeky: Hum, haven't noticed an epidemic of ugly sores...

Quote:

3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. The sea turned to blood like that from a corpse; every creature living in the sea died. .

Blood red seas...wow! Now with all of our satellites, I don't think we would have missed this second angelic event.

Quote:

4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water. These also turned to blood.
5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just, O Holy One, who are and who were, in passing this sentence.
6 For they have shed the blood of the holy ones and the prophets, and you (have) given them blood to drink; it is what they deserve."
7 Then I heard the altar cry out, "Yes, Lord God almighty, your judgments are true and just." .

Holy Zeus, bloody rivers! Haven't heard of that since ancient Egypt.

Quote:

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun. It was given the power to burn people with fire.
9 People were burned by the scorching heat and blasphemed the name of God who had power over these plagues, but they did not repent or give him glory. .

Haven't seen large groups of people burning for no particular reason...

Quote:

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast. Its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and people bit their tongues in pain
11 and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores. But they did not repent of their works. .

Wow, now it is all dark...oh wait it isn't :huh: We are biting our tongues???

Quote:

12 The sixth angel emptied his bowl on the great river Euphrates. Its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

Ah, but now you think you see the signs of the sixth angel and get all excited. We haven't even had the Tribulation yet, nor have the previous 5 angels appeared, but you are so sure this is a sign...tis pretty funny. Maybe you should pick up a simpler hobby, as I don't think you have really figured this one out yet. BTW, this a is pretty decent book, if one is into conservative Christian Revelation/Rapture study: The Footsteps of the Messiah: A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum.

badger3k · 09-23-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I like to see the chapter and verse on that. Blessed are the retarded, for they shall be crowned???

Jesus said,
“And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand” (John 10:28).

If they cannot differentiate right from wrong, they cannot be held accountable for their actions.

How do you get that? From the ASV (on my iPhone):
John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

How does that have anything related to retarded people, or those who cannot differentiate right from wrong. The context has nothing that suggests that.

Joan of Bark · 09-23-2009, 06:32 PM

Whoa, this thread is completely derailed now, so I'll put my further two cents in ...

The number of Christians on the planet is really unknowable, because we only know about what people claim to be based on surveys. How many of them are taking Pascal's Wager to heart and checking the Christian box out of fear, rather than sincere belief? Without hooking them up to a lie detector, we'll never know.

As for the so-called "end-times being near", Hymn, I suggest you read A History of the End of the World (or via: amazon.co.uk)by Jonathan Kirsch. He points out that doomsayers like you have been predicting the imminent end of the world based on Revelation for the past 2000 years. All those predictions have been WRONG.

jakejonesiv · 09-24-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Whoa, this thread is completely derailed now, so I'll put my further two cents in ...

The number of Christians on the planet is really unknowable, because we only know about what people claim to be based on surveys. How many of them are taking Pascal's Wager to heart and checking the Christian box out of fear, rather than sincere belief? Without hooking them up to a lie detector, we'll never know.

As for the so-called "end-times being near", Hymn, I suggest you read A History of the End of the World (or via: amazon.co.uk)by Jonathan Kirsch. He points out that doomsayers like you have been predicting the imminent end of the world based on Revelation for the past 2000 years. All those predictions have been WRONG.

Hi Joan,

Yes, I have read that book. It really puts the hype in perspective.

Jake

jakejonesiv · 09-24-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

If you don't KNOW (as in have knowledge, not belief) FOR SURE, then why do you continue spouting all this stuff about the end of days?

This sounds exactly what you described as the "lunatic fringe" you claimed your fellow Christians have been living in for the past two thousand years.

How are you any different than they did?

No! You asked me if the Euphrates running dry is due to "climate change." I said I have no idea about that. I really don't know the actual cause, but I do know it's happening, and The Book of Revelations said this day would happen before the return of Christ.

When I mentioned "The lunatic fringe", I was actually talking about the idiots like Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh..etc,etc.

What about the other prophetic items in Revelation that are supposed to occur before the return of Christ that are not "happening?" Wouldn't everything have to start happening at once to have any real meaning? Otherwise, you could just pick any item from the long list of alleged prophecies, claim partial fulfiment, and then congratulate yourself for knowing more "about the Bible" than all the righteous Christians who got it wrong before you came along. Psalm 31:18.

bacht · 09-25-2009, 06:53 AM

The messages to the seven churches in the introduction imply that the end is near, not 2000 years later.

Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev 3.10-11

graymouser · 09-25-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

The messages to the seven churches in the introduction imply that the end is near, not 2000 years later.

Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev 3.10-11

Well, yes, Jesus also says that the parousia is imminent:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34 NASB.

This is not ambiguous, and the contortions that apologists go into to make Jesus's false prophecy (for the generation that would have heard him is long dead, their bones turned to dust) not false are laughable. Jesus told his hearers that the coming of the Son of Man in glory would be during their lifetimes. He was wrong.

show_no_mercy · 09-25-2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

The messages to the seven churches in the introduction imply that the end is near, not 2000 years later.

Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev 3.10-11

Well, yes, Jesus also says that the parousia is imminent:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34 NASB.

This is not ambiguous, and the contortions that apologists go into to make Jesus's false prophecy (for the generation that would have heard him is long dead, their bones turned to dust) not false are laughable. Jesus told his hearers that the coming of the Son of Man in glory would be during their lifetimes. He was wrong.

He also gives this same false prophecy to the High Priest at his supposed trial:

"And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:62

The High Priest has long since died (and every other pseudomartyras at his trial), and did not witness Jesus sitting at the right hand of the "powerful one" coming down to Earth on clouds from the sky.

09-25-2009, 06:53 AM	#198
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	The messages to the seven churches in the introduction imply that the end is near, not 2000 years later. Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. Rev 3.10-11

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09-23-2009, 06:32 PM	#195
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Whoa, this thread is completely derailed now, so I'll put my further two cents in ... The number of Christians on the planet is really unknowable, because we only know about what people claim to be based on surveys. How many of them are taking Pascal's Wager to heart and checking the Christian box out of fear, rather than sincere belief? Without hooking them up to a lie detector, we'll never know. As for the so-called "end-times being near", Hymn, I suggest you read A History of the End of the World (or via: amazon.co.uk)by Jonathan Kirsch. He points out that doomsayers like you have been predicting the imminent end of the world based on Revelation for the past 2000 years. All those predictions have been WRONG.

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