Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 07-18-2004, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

One thing is certain. There is absolutely nothing in Galatians 4:6 about Christians praying.

So how can it be taken as proof that Jesus prayed using the words 'Abba. Father'?

What do you call a direct petition to God, if not a prayer?

Indeed, there is some similarity to the use of a related phrase in Hebrews 5:7:

Quote:

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.

Interestingly, many commentators suggest that there is a connection here to the same scene in which Jesus uses the phrase "Abba, Father." At the very least, it is a scene depiction Jesus praying.

Layman · 07-18-2004, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Romans 8:26 (just a few verses after Laymans 'proof' text about Jesus praying) has 'In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.'

If Christians were puzzled how to pray, is this because they had studied Jesus's prayers and used them as a model for their prayers?

The passage is not a teaching about how to pray. It is about how Christians can approach God.

Quote:

Notice that Romans 8:15 says 'For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.".

There is nothing about prayer there.

Crying out to God is prayer. Especially given the emphasis on suffering and crying out to God.

Evangelion · 07-18-2004, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

What is the 'Spirit of the Son'? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it identical to the Spirit of the Father?

Is it Jesus himself?

It's an attitude; a state of mind. It's part of the Christian relationship with God, as sons and daughters of YHVH.

Thus:

Quote:

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Also:

Quote:

Galatians 3:26-29
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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Is Paul claiming that the earthly Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', (as Layman claims)

No, I don't believe he is claiming any such thing. That aside, I see no reason to assume that Jesus didn't do this.

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Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

What is the Spirit of sonship?

I refer you to my answer on the "spirit of Christ."

Quote:

Is Layman correct when he writes that Paul is claiming here that Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', during his earthly life?

Not IMHO.

Layman · 07-18-2004, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Layman says in his blog:
But in any case, a child is not a slave. A slave would not address his master as "Abba", but children address their fathers as "Abba", even when their status is the same as slaves.

Not sure what your point is. That Paul mixes metaphors? He is obviously talking about Christians becoming adoptive sons of God. A sign that Christians have become adoptive sons is that they are empowered by the Spirit to cry out to God as Jesus did--by using the more intimiate address of "Abba." Which part of this are you disputing?

Carr obsesses about which Spirit this was? I presume he is questioning the doctirne of the Trinity or driving some other tangent. In any event, it does not appear relevant to the question at issue.

Layman · 07-18-2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Layman makes an interesting comment.

'Finally, there is the uniqueness of this form of address. Praying
to God as "Abba Father" appears to be unique to Christianity at that
time.'

Layman never shrinks from using arguments from silence whenever they suit him?

Actually, whenever they are appropriate.

Quote:

May I remind Layman that absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence?

Depends on the context.

Quote:

Anyway, doesn't Vermes provide counter-examples in his book 'The Religion of Jesus the Jew?'

Some people think so. Others do not think his examples do not eliminate the point. Have you read his book? Why do you not quote it?

Quote:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/Bodendorfer.../judeJesus.htm

'Ein bekannter Vertreter dieser Gruppe ist Choni/Onias, der etwa 90-68v. als Beter und Wundertäter aktiv war..... Choni habe zu Gott "Abba" gesagt und sei ähnlich familiär mit ihm umgegangen wie ein verwöhntes Kind... wird darauf hingewiesen, dass das Beten um Regen eine Tradition sei, die auf die Propheten Elia (vgl. 1Kön 18) und Habakuk (Hab 2,1) zurückgehe.

I cannot read this.

Quote:

http://www.restorationfoundation.org/6336.htm
'One of the distinguishing features of ancient Hasidic piety was also its habit of alluding to God as "Father," and even of addressing him as Abba, which sometimes earned them the criticism of the Pharisees.'

What is "ancient Hasidic piety"? It was my understanding that, historically speaking, Hasidic Judaism was relatively recent:

Quote:

Hasidic Judaism (also spelled Chasidic) is a Haredi Jewish religious movement. It was founded by Israel ben Eliezer (1700-1760), also known as the Baal Shem Tov, or the Besht. Hasidic Judaism was formed in a time of persecution of the Jewish people, and in a time when European Jews had turned inward to Talmud study; many Jews at this time felt that most expressions of Jewish life had become too academic, and that they no longer had any emphasis on spirituality or joy. The Ba'al Shem Tov set out to change this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidism

Quote:

Referring to God as 'Abba' was not uncommon, which makes me wonder why Layman wants his readers to believe it was unique to Christianity.

Even if another small sect used the phrase, and received grief for it from the predmonint Pharisiac belief system, it would still be uncommon. In any event, you have not proved anything of the sort yet. And you have no cause to accuse me of intentional deception. If I am wrong, it was a mistake. We all make them. And if proved wrong, I will not repeat the mistake. Because I do not write what I do not believe. So try and keep it courteous here

I have a book that devote several pages to the subject that I am currently trying to track down. When/if I find it, perhaps we will have the scrpitures raised by Vermes. If not, I'll check out Vermes book next time I'm at the library.

Quote:

Layman also quotes 'What is stricking (sic) about this prayer language here is that the Aramaic is juxtaposed with the Greek, and even more striking if the fact that the one time we find this language on the lips of Jesus in Mk. 14.36, we find exactly the same form -- literary (sic) 'abba, the Father' or 'abba, Father'

Is this a joke? Are we meant to believe that the lips of Jesus spoke Aramaic and Greek in the same sentence? Surely even the brain dead can see that the translation in Mark 14:36 is by the author of Mark, and not from the lips of Jesus?

Who are you saying is brain dead?

In any event, you are wrong about what Witherington believes. As I explained to you in the blog:

Carr,

I'm not sure what your problem is here. Witherington does not appear to suggest that Jesus actually spoke both terms, but that is simply how Mark wrote it. Perhaps the next paragraph will make this more clear to you:

"What this suggests is that we have here not only a relic of the prayer life of the earliest Aramaic speaking Christians, but one which became common coin for non-Aramaic speaking Christians as well, hence the need to juxtapose the Greek equivalent with the Aramaic abba."

Ben Witherington, Grace in Galatia, page 291.

Quote:

Indeed, if it was widely known by Christians what Abba meant, why did Mark bother translating it?

If it was widely known, I presume it was because the phrase had been combined for so long. Paul provides evidence of this.

Evangelion · 07-18-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Indeed, if it was widely known by Christians what Abba meant, why did Mark bother translating it?

Mark wrote for a mixed audience. Not everyone who read the Gospels was a Christian (or a Jew, for that matter!) and these texts were used as preaching tools. So you have to take the new converts (and potential converts) into account.

Adam Clarke writes:

Quote:

Abba, Syriac, is here joined to ὁ πατη�?, Greek, both signifying father; so St. Paul, Rom_8:15; Gal_4:6.

The reason is, that from the time in which the Jews became conversant with the Greek language, by means of the Septuagint version and their commerce with the Roman and Greek provinces, they often intermingled Greek and Roman words with their own language.

There is the fullest evidence of this fact in the earliest writings of the Jews; and they often add a word of the same meaning in Greek to their own term; such as מרי קירי, Mori, κυ�?ιε my Lord, Lord; פילי שער, pili, πυλη, shuar, gate, gate: and above, �?ב�?, πατη�?, father, father: see several examples in Schoettgen.

The words �?בי and �?ב�? appear to have been differently used among the Hebrews; the first Abbi, was a term of civil respect; the second, Abba, a term of filial affection. Hence, Abba, Abbi, as in the Syriac version in this place, may be considered as expressing, My Lord, my Father.

And in this sense St. Paul is to be understood in the places referred to above. See Lightfoot.

Evangelion · 07-18-2004, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Who are you saying is brain dead?

I suggest you take his baiting as a compliment. After all, it's merely intended to rile you - which would not be even necessary if Carr's assertion stood on its own merits. The comment is made more for his sake than yours. It's just a mental pat on the back. ("See how I fearlessly mock the Christian!")

Which is disappointing because his material is generally of a very high standard indeed. I'm surprised to see him resorting to Turkel-esque tactics.

Toto · 07-18-2004, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layman

What is "ancient Hasidic piety"? It was my understanding that, historically speaking, Hasidic Judaism was relatively recent:

It always helps to read some of the links provided:

Quote:

In his healing ministry Jesus was part of the Jewish world of his day. A branch of the Pharisees, the Hasidim, which existed from the first century BC (not to be confused with the Hasidim of eastern Europe of more recent centuries) were noted for their emphasis on deeds rather than study, and also for their supernatural healing ministry. These Hasidim were located in the Galilee, from which Jesus also came, rather than Judea. (The standard of piety and learning in the Galilee was in general higher than anywhere else in Israel certainly than in Judea, except perhaps in Jerusalem).

The Jewish scholar Geza Vermes has described what he called "Charismatic Judaism" as a pious movement in which people believed in miracles and experienced supernatural answers to prayer."7 Many of the early rabbis associated with the so-called charismatic stream of ancient Judaism were also known for their miracles. "There is hardly any miracle recorded in the Bible for which a parallel might not be found in the rabbinic literature.8

Most of the passages pertaining to Hasidim refer to their causing rain to fall, healing the sick, or exorcising demons that caused the people much fear. The first reference in the literature to the Hasidic movement is the reference to Honi the Circle Drawer in the Mishnah."9 In a story about Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa it is stated that he used to pray for the sick, and further stories tell of exorcism of evil spirits by Hanina ben Dosa and other Hasidim.

All the stories indicate that people turned to the Hasidim and to no other group to effect cures or exorcism, although they may have turned occasionally to other sages to pray for rain within the standard ceremonies connected with drought. In this case the sage would pray for rain as part of a public prayer ritual and sometimes his prayers were answered and sometimes not. The prayers of the Hasid however, it is claimed, were always answered. The Hasid prayed privately and chose not to pray in the temple, but in solitude; as did Honi who it is said rather chose solitude to beseech his father in heaven."10

One of the distinguishing features of ancient Hasidic piety was also its habit of alluding to God as "Father," and even of addressing him as Abba, which sometimes earned them the criticism of the Pharisees.11 It is interesting to note that Professor Shmuel Safrai in Jerusalem believes that Jesus had more in common with the Hasidim than with any other group.

Layman · 07-18-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It always helps to read some of the links provided:

So you are arguing that the use of the term "Abba" to refer to God was disfavored among Pharisaic Judaism?

I'm more interested in the primary sources here.

Steven Carr · 07-18-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layman

What do you call a direct petition to God, if not a prayer?

Do you mean that a lot of people pray during orgasm?

There is nothing in Galatians 4:6 that says that when Christians call God 'Abba', they are praying,

Layman 'Even if another small sect used the phrase, and received grief for it from the predmonint Pharisiac belief system, it would still be uncommon.'

You called it 'unique'. I assume you will be telling your readers that that was mistaken.

Don't forget that Paul would no more have departed from Jewish thought when calling God 'Abba', than he would have departed from Jewish thought over the concept of 'resurrection'.

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