Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 05:14 AM

Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

What is the 'Spirit of the Son'? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it identical to the Spirit of the Father?

Is it Jesus himself?

Is Paul claiming that the earthly Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', (as Layman claims)

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

What is the Spirit of sonship? Is Layman correct when he writes that Paul is claiming here that Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', during his earthly life?

DinoStoned · 07-17-2004, 06:00 AM

I'd interpret the verses to mean that Jesus makes us cry out "Abba, Father", rather than he himself doing it... but I'm hardly the Bible expert.
Just giving my opinions here.

Oh, and I thought you were going to talk about Jesus and ABBA (the band)...

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 06:33 AM

So when Paul talks about 'The Spirit of the Son', he is referring to mystic revelations from a spiritual Jesus, and he regards the use of 'Abba' as coming from a spiritual Jesus??

DinoStoned · 07-17-2004, 06:38 AM

Yeah. At least, that's how I figure it.
If I recall correctly, in the Bible, Paul never met the real Jesus. All we have is his account of how he met the 'resurrected' Jesus on his way to Damascus.

So I'd say Christians pray "Abba, Father", guided by the spirit of Jesus Christ.
I've never heard a real prayer starting with those words, though. Only heard them in songs...

Layman · 07-17-2004, 10:50 AM

Let's give people some context. Carr is responding, kinda, to a blog spot I posted here:

http://www.christiancadre.blogspot.com

At first I agreed that his criticism was fair as to this one point, but upon further reflection, I'm inclined to keep it on the list of what Paul knew about Jesus. I'm posting a further blog on this topic. Comments are more than welcome there.

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 01:17 PM

Layman makes an interesting comment.

'Finally, there is the uniqueness of this form of address. Praying
to God as "Abba Father" appears to be unique to Christianity at that
time.'

Layman never shrinks from using arguments from silence whenever they suit him?

May I remind Layman that absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence?

Anyway, doesn't Vermes provide counter-examples in his book 'The Religion of Jesus the Jew?'

http://mitglied.lycos.de/Bodendorfer.../judeJesus.htm

'Ein bekannter Vertreter dieser Gruppe ist Choni/Onias, der etwa 90-68v. als Beter und Wundertäter aktiv war..... Choni habe zu Gott "Abba" gesagt und sei ähnlich familiär mit ihm umgegangen wie ein verwöhntes Kind... wird darauf hingewiesen, dass das Beten um Regen eine Tradition sei, die auf die Propheten Elia (vgl. 1Kön 18) und Habakuk (Hab 2,1) zurückgehe.

http://www.restorationfoundation.org/6336.htm
'One of the distinguishing features of ancient Hasidic piety was also its habit of alluding to God as "Father," and even of addressing him as Abba, which sometimes earned them the criticism of the Pharisees.'

Referring to God as 'Abba' was not uncommon, which makes me wonder why Layman wants his readers to believe it was unique to Christianity.

Layman also quotes 'What is stricking (sic) about this prayer language here is that the Aramaic is juxtaposed with the Greek, and even more striking if the fact that the one time we find this language on the lips of Jesus in Mk. 14.36, we find exactly the same form -- literary (sic) 'abba, the Father' or 'abba, Father'

Is this a joke? Are we meant to believe that the lips of Jesus spoke Aramaic and Greek in the same sentence? Surely even the brain dead can see that the translation in Mark 14:36 is by the author of Mark, and not from the lips of Jesus?

Indeed, if it was widely known by Christians what Abba meant, why did Mark bother translating it?

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layman

Let's give people some context. Carr is responding, kinda, to a blog spot I posted here:

http://www.christiancadre.blogspot.com

I did ask some questions :-
What is the 'Spirit of the Son'? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it identical to the Spirit of the Father? Is it Jesus himself?

Does Layman feel interested in answering them?

Is the 'Spirit of the Son' as Paul talks about in Gal. 4:6 the Holy Spirit?

Toto · 07-17-2004, 02:27 PM

Layman says in his blog:

Quote:

Again the focus is on being adoptive sons of God. Here the connection to being like the Son of God is more explicit. We are not only children of God, but "fellow heirs with Christ" who suffer and will be gloried "with Him." Again, crying out "Abba Father" is a sign of being like Jesus, of doing what he did. But since approaching God as a father is forbidden by those who are slaves under the law (no slave would so address his master), we must be transformed by the Spirit before we can approach God as Jesus did.

There's something about this that does not sound right.

Galatians 4 says (as Layman quotes it):

Quote:

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Perhaps Paul is mixing a few metaphors here. Is he talking about heirs who are in bondage because they have not reached the age of majority, or about slaves who are bought out of slavery? Or is everything just a metaphor for the bondage of this world until we are transformed by the spiritual Christ who is sent into our hearts (without necessarily having existed in 1st c. Palestine?)

He starts off saying that children have the same status as slaves (legally true in many jurisdictions up until the abolition of slavery.) But then he has God sending his son to redeem (meaning pay the purchase price to release them from slavery?) those under the law (meaning Jews who follow the law) so that they become adopted sons - even though it appears that they were heirs and sons of God to start out with, but with the status of slaves only because of their age.

But in any case, a child is not a slave. A slave would not address his master as "Abba", but children address their fathers as "Abba", even when their status is the same as slaves.

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 02:36 PM

One thing is certain. There is absolutely nothing in Galatians 4:6 about Christians praying.

So how can it be taken as proof that Jesus prayed using the words 'Abba. Father'?

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 02:52 PM

Romans 8:26 (just a few verses after Laymans 'proof' text about Jesus praying) has 'In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.'

If Christians were puzzled how to pray, is this because they had studied Jesus's prayers and used them as a model for their prayers?

Notice that Romans 8:15 says 'For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.".

There is nothing about prayer there.

07-17-2004, 05:14 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Jesus and Abba Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." What is the 'Spirit of the Son'? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it identical to the Spirit of the Father? Is it Jesus himself? Is Paul claiming that the earthly Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', (as Layman claims) Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." What is the Spirit of sonship? Is Layman correct when he writes that Paul is claiming here that Jesus prayed to God using the word 'Abba', during his earthly life?

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07-17-2004, 06:00 AM	#2
DinoStoned Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Malaysia Posts: 599	I'd interpret the verses to mean that Jesus makes us cry out "Abba, Father", rather than he himself doing it... but I'm hardly the Bible expert. Just giving my opinions here. Oh, and I thought you were going to talk about Jesus and ABBA (the band)...

07-17-2004, 06:33 AM	#3
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	So when Paul talks about 'The Spirit of the Son', he is referring to mystic revelations from a spiritual Jesus, and he regards the use of 'Abba' as coming from a spiritual Jesus??

07-17-2004, 06:38 AM	#4
DinoStoned Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Malaysia Posts: 599	Yeah. At least, that's how I figure it. If I recall correctly, in the Bible, Paul never met the real Jesus. All we have is his account of how he met the 'resurrected' Jesus on his way to Damascus. So I'd say Christians pray "Abba, Father", guided by the spirit of Jesus Christ. I've never heard a real prayer starting with those words, though. Only heard them in songs...

07-17-2004, 10:50 AM	#5
Layman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,635	Let's give people some context. Carr is responding, kinda, to a blog spot I posted here: http://www.christiancadre.blogspot.com At first I agreed that his criticism was fair as to this one point, but upon further reflection, I'm inclined to keep it on the list of what Paul knew about Jesus. I'm posting a further blog on this topic. Comments are more than welcome there.

07-17-2004, 01:17 PM	#6
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Layman makes an interesting comment. 'Finally, there is the uniqueness of this form of address. Praying to God as "Abba Father" appears to be unique to Christianity at that time.' Layman never shrinks from using arguments from silence whenever they suit him? May I remind Layman that absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence? Anyway, doesn't Vermes provide counter-examples in his book 'The Religion of Jesus the Jew?' http://mitglied.lycos.de/Bodendorfer.../judeJesus.htm 'Ein bekannter Vertreter dieser Gruppe ist Choni/Onias, der etwa 90-68v. als Beter und Wundertäter aktiv war..... Choni habe zu Gott "Abba" gesagt und sei ähnlich familiär mit ihm umgegangen wie ein verwöhntes Kind... wird darauf hingewiesen, dass das Beten um Regen eine Tradition sei, die auf die Propheten Elia (vgl. 1Kön 18) und Habakuk (Hab 2,1) zurückgehe. http://www.restorationfoundation.org/6336.htm 'One of the distinguishing features of ancient Hasidic piety was also its habit of alluding to God as "Father," and even of addressing him as Abba, which sometimes earned them the criticism of the Pharisees.' Referring to God as 'Abba' was not uncommon, which makes me wonder why Layman wants his readers to believe it was unique to Christianity. Layman also quotes 'What is stricking (sic) about this prayer language here is that the Aramaic is juxtaposed with the Greek, and even more striking if the fact that the one time we find this language on the lips of Jesus in Mk. 14.36, we find exactly the same form -- literary (sic) 'abba, the Father' or 'abba, Father' Is this a joke? Are we meant to believe that the lips of Jesus spoke Aramaic and Greek in the same sentence? Surely even the brain dead can see that the translation in Mark 14:36 is by the author of Mark, and not from the lips of Jesus? Indeed, if it was widely known by Christians what Abba meant, why did Mark bother translating it?

07-17-2004, 02:36 PM	#9
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	One thing is certain. There is absolutely nothing in Galatians 4:6 about Christians praying. So how can it be taken as proof that Jesus prayed using the words 'Abba. Father'?

07-17-2004, 02:52 PM	#10
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Romans 8:26 (just a few verses after Laymans 'proof' text about Jesus praying) has 'In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.' If Christians were puzzled how to pray, is this because they had studied Jesus's prayers and used them as a model for their prayers? Notice that Romans 8:15 says 'For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.". There is nothing about prayer there.

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