Dean Anderson

Wow! We actually agree on something! Time to break out the champagne...

Although Matthew 18 and Mark 9 would both imply that the Lake of Fire is in Hell.

If you look at the original Greek for this verse, the phrase used is aiônas aiônôn. This would be better translated to the English idiom 'for ages and ages' than to the English idiom 'for ever and ever'. Also it is referring to the smoke, not the burning itself. It doesn't claim eternal burning for worshippers of the beast, just a pall of smoke lasting a long time after the burning of the worshippers of the beast.



Of course, this verse implies that the (presumably immortal, or at least a lot tougher than a human) devil is tormented in the lake of fire 'for ages and ages' (it uses the same phrase as the above verse).

On a side note, this verse also contradicts the traditional Christian view of the devil being the ruler of Hell and sitting in the flames laughing while mortals burn...

I must admit, when I was going through the Bible looking for text about Hell I didn't pay too much attention to Revelation. There were two reasons for this...

1) Revelation is someone's visions. Visions are a metaphorical device like Parables. After all, even to an innerantist there is a difference between believing that Jesus told a fictional story about a 'prodigal son' to make a point and believing that Jesus told a true account about a 'prodigal son' who really existed.

2) Revelation was almost certainly written as an encoded piece of anti-Roman propaganda, not as a genuine statement of someone's beliefs about how the world works (unlike earlier books).

You have to be careful here. Was the valley named after the mythical place, or was the mythical place named after the valley?

To answer that question we would need to know when the valley was called that, and when the legends of the mythical version started. I don't have any information on either, do you?

Quote:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Sounds eternal to me.

Well, the first of those two verses just says that the fire is everlasting. This corroborates what the rest of the Bible says about it.

The second verse hilights a theological point that I touched on in my OP but that I think probably deserves a thread of its own - that of the reward of eternal life being meaningless unless death and oblivion is the alternative...

The standard Christian viewpoint is that the choice is between eternal life-after-death in Heaven or eternal life-after-death in Hell.

The Bible makes clear that the soul can live and die independently of the body, and keeps talking about how you can achieve Eternal Life. The other alternative to eternal life is death. Eternal life in Heaven or eternal life in Hell is not the choice offered by the bible. It offers the choice of eternal life of the soul after bodily death or death/oblivion of the soul after bodily death.

The everlasting unquenchable flame that resides in Hell is the instrument of death that destroys the soul.

The everlasting punishment is Death And Oblivion of the soul, not life of the soul in fire.

I don't really care whether the Bible says Hell is eternal or not any more than I care whether the Book of Going Forth says that Thoth will weigh my heart against the Feather of Maat or the Feather of the Benu. I don't believe either mythical system for a second.

However, they are both interesting things to examine - especially when you see how what people believe differs from what their holy texts say (and even if you think you have everything right, there are lots of other Christian denominations that believe differently to you).

Dean Anderson

Well, that is what some Christians believe too (e.g. the Seventh Day Adventists).

It is also the position that I think the bible supports. Otherwise how could it be contrasted with 'eternal life'?

Dean Anderson

The Greek phrase uses a similar idiom to the Aramaic.

My opinion is that the best English translation would be the idiom 'for ages and ages'.

(Although I must add a disclaimer here - my Greek is almost non-existent!)

SkepticBoyLee

You guys are still ignoring the fact that before judgement we supposedly get NEW, IMMORTAL bodies.

and then we are judged. The bad ones go to hell and are TORTURED forever, not annihilated. Their bodies are indestructable.

SkepticBoyLee

There is no such thing as EVERlasting destruction. Once your wiped from existance thats it. Your gone. How can you continually be annihilated??

I think its very clear that christinaity teaches everlasting torture. You are even given an indestructable body(before judgment) so that you may feel the awful pain and torture but still survive it.

Dean Anderson

There is a difference between destruction (followed by permanent non-existence) and destruction (followed by restoration).

The first is everlasting destruction - because that which is destroyed is never restored.

The second is temporary destruction - because that which is destroyed is later restored.

Yes. Most denominations of Christianity do clearly teach that doctrine. No-one has said they don't.

However, some denominations do not teach that - and the point of my OP was that the Bible doesn't contain/teach it either.

SkepticBoyLee

Yes it does. Before judgment both believers and non believer, EVERYONE is given and immortal body. You cant annihilate an immortal body.

Calzaer

Sez you?

I thought God was omnipotent?

In any case, Hell is destroyed before we get those immortal bodies, so it's kind of pointless.

judge

Judgement day has already happened. In fact evrything associated with the "last days" has already happened.
Time and time and time again the authors of the NT state that they were living in the "last days".
Christ's coming in great power and glory, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgement are all past events for us

Calzaer

Does that mean you and Magus got left behind during the Rapture?