John A. Broussard

Thanks for all the references.

I'm still a bit bothered by:

"The same presence strengthens the action of the pope, so that, as mouthpiece of the council, he can say in truth, "it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us", and consequently can, and does, put the seal of infallibility on the conciliar decree irrespective of his own personal infallibility."

Which would seem that the "infallible" pronouncements of the council can only be expressed by the pope.

But that's a minor problem. I'm still trying to find which statements--council or papal--are clearly accepted by the Church as being infallible. I think there's full agreement on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, but beyond that???????

Thanks again for the replies to my posts.

Helpmabob

Hi clarice - Would you kind enough to give me a brief summary of some or all of things I should have learnt here, because it is not totally clear to me what you mean.

Clarice O'C

You've been provided with reasonable discussion that your god and hell don't exist. You yourself can give us no evidence for your god or hell, i.e., that what you're saying is true. You've been informed that there is a god that you can see and touch, i.e., a god that there is evidence for. Yet you continue to believe in your Jesus god. You should have learned that the Giant Pink Teapot is the one true god.

Helpmabob

Hi Clarice - I don’t disagree with this at all - I have enjoyed reading others views, and I have learnt and continue to learn stuff, but probably not that which you would expect. Neither am I just playing around. Nor do I believe age (assuming we are all adults here) has anything bearing on this matter at all.

I apologise if I said too much about the sin, but I was going there because an appreciation of the existence of this happens to be the crucial in understanding why there might be a hell. This implies that Romans is wrong when it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.I cannot prove the existence of God. But there is evidence that a Creator exists and that He is the God as revealed in the Bible. There is evidence that Christ was the Son of God; that He died for us; that there is a Holy Spirit with christians now. I have put it to the test and found it to good. I should search other threads, or even other websites if you are interested in this evidence, though, as this thread is about hell.

JPD

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the "existence" of God.
If you think that physical existence is evidence of God then all I can see is physical existence and nothing else. Anything that would seem to be beneath, above, or beyond physical existence is completely and utterly unknown to us. We can't say whether there is anything beyond physical existence full stop. And if you consider for even a fraction of a second that the Bible is somehow a link to this other type of existence or whatever it is that you wish to call it - then remember that all you have is contemplation on what might be. To claim that there is evidence of a creator is totally bogus. To claim that there is evidence that Christ was the son of God is laughably pathetic as an assertion and will be met with the derision it deserves. Your "test" must be quite worthless as an analytical tool and I very much doubt that it would last five seconds if you revealed its inner workings here. You have said that you cannot prove the existence of God - fine - yes - but you then go off on a jaunt with "Jesus was the son of God" and all the rest of it. If you can't prove the existence of a creator what are you even doing considering this junk for? You haven't thought this through at all.

John A. Broussard

Yes, and there is evidence that a Creator exists and that He is the God as revealed in the Quran.

How do you know which Creator to believe in?

There are probably some 30,000 or more sects in the world, many with different Creator gods.

After you've answered the above regarding the Quranic god we can start down this list of yet other gods.

Helpmabob

Dear JPD – I am here testifying that the following is true – and it is magnificent. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. [1 Corinthians 13:12,13]. Notice that even I do not see the full picture, and that I am investing in hope and faith.

By test I mean putting my faith in Christ as my Saviour and His promises, and seeing if they satisfy the needs of my soul. Perhaps your soul is at rest, and has all it needs though? You will not take the test? It would ultimately help you appreciate the thread topic.

Dear John – The OT is packed full of created, rather than creating gods, but I will not presume to lecture you on what became of them, and how useful they proved to be in the salvation of their followers.

John A. Broussard

Which is a complete non-answer to the question: "How do you know which Creator to believe in?"

Want to try again?

I'd appreciate it if you would simply say you don't want to answer the question then to obfscate.

Revenge of Montezuma

Glad you spotted that one, John. I'd always understood that there were just two infallible statements - about Mary's Perpetual Virginity and her Assumption. But of course logic dictates that there has to be a third that such statements will be infallible. Such statements are apparently made ex cathedra - from the chair of St Peter, and became dogma only fairly recently, I think - even though the teachings had been around a very long while. But it might be interesting to know if there was an infallible statement ex cathedra stating that all ex cathedra statements would be infallible. apologies if all this has been well mulled over - I haven't followed the thread all the way.

John A. Broussard

No apologies necessary. I'm the only one who seems ready to pursue this point, which I have through several threads with no answer at all.

Incidentally, there do seem to be more infallible statements then the above two, though I can't say infallibly that there are. I've explored several Catholic sites and have one count that goes up to eighteen.

There are even some Catholic writers (theologians?) who insist that the pope isn't the only source of infallible pronouncements within the Church. That a magesterium (whatever that is) can also be infallible.

All very puzzling. One would think that in an authoritarian organization like the True Church of Christ, the list of infallible statements (and dogma, for that matter) would be printed out and made available to all the faithful.

Even the U.S. Navy, of blessed memory, has a document we referred to as "Rocks and Shoals" which contained the word.