Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JEST2ASK · 12-26-2007, 01:37 PM

Wondering what does the fact that there are people claiming to be Samaritans (most) living in the nation of Isreal prove. :huh:

Jedi Mind Trick · 12-26-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

to Jedi mind trick: Good that you find the prophecies of Israel remarkable. True Judaism is Christianity.

:rolling: How so? Personally I think the true Yeshua would disagree with you on that. The Christianity of today is closer to paganism than it is to the teachings of Rebbi Yeshua ben Yoseph.

Jedi Mind Trick · 12-26-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

to jedi Jesus started Christianity...not the Romans.

How do you explain the pro Roman-Anti Jew stance of the NT despite it allegedly being written by Jews proclaiming a messiah? Messianic Jews of the first century were notoriously anti Roman. Rebbi Yeshua ben Yoseph would not have started a new religion. He was a devout Jew, perhaps a little critical of other Jewish sects, but none-the-less Jewish.

Jedi Mind Trick · 12-26-2007, 01:57 PM

Sugar,
What happened to the unbelieving Jews (not believing in Jesus that is) who died in the holocaust? Where are they, Heaven or Hell?

jjramsey · 12-26-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is interesting to note that even though the Old Testament claims that the messiah would be a genetic descendant of David, Matthew indicates that Jesus was not a genetic descendant of David.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Not to steal your thunder here, but where does the OT say that the messiah was a genetic son of David?

I was going by what I thought that fundies believe.

That doesn't answer my question. If you are going to claim that "the Old Testament claims that the messiah would be a genetic descendant of David," you ought to be able to find the relevant verses supporting you, rather than rely on vague and tendentious claims about what fundies believe.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-26-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Not to steal your thunder here, but where does the OT say that the messiah was a genetic son of David?

Consider the following:

http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficult...antofdavid.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipsis.org

The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David

The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Rom. 1:3, Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matt. 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father (the Virgin Birth)?

Biblical Errancy Pamphlets by Dennis McKinsey Pamphlet 2 Q16.

The verses McKinsey mentions are:

Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

(Acts 2:29-30 NIV) "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. {30} But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

Both Matthew and Luke list king David in the genealogy of Jesus, Matthew mentions David three times in his genealogy, in Matthews case the genealogy lists king Solomon as David's son.

(Mat 1:1 NIV) A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:

(Mat 1:6 NIV) and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,

(Mat 1:17 NIV) Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

Luke mentions David once in his genealogy, in his genealogy Luke lists Nathan as the son of David.

(Luke 3:31 NIV) the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,

Luke also takes great pains to indicate that Jesus descended from David (apart from the genealogies):

(Luke 1:27 NIV) to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

(Luke 1:32 NIV) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

(Luke 1:68-70 NIV) "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. {69} He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David {70} (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),

(Luke 2:4 NIV) So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.

Luke also emphasises the virgin birth:

(Luke 1:34-35 NIV) "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" {35} The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

(Luke 3:23 NIV) Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

As does Matthew

Mat 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.... (Mat 1:23 NIV) "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

There are four important OT messianic prophecies: the first says that the Messiah will come from Bethlehem; and the second says that he will be born of a virgin; and third and fourth that says that he will be descended from David.

Mic 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

(2 Sam 7:12 NIV) When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.

(Isa 7:14 NIV) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

(Isa 9:6-7 NIV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. {7} Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Matthew traces his ancestry through his legal father Joseph and Luke his ancestry through his actual mother, both of who are descended from David. Paul is clear that as to his human nature, Jesus descended from David.

(Rom 1:1-3 NIV) Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- {2} the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures {3} regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

If Jesus were not descended from David then both the apostles Peter and Paul got it wrong.

Firstly Peter, the apostle to the Jews

(Acts 2:29-32 NIV) "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. {30} But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. {31} Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. {32} God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Secondly Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles:

(Acts 13:22-23 NIV) After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.' {23} "From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

(Rom 1:3 NIV) regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

(2 Tim 2:8 NIV) Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,

It is clearly both Matthew and Luke's aim to show that Jesus descended from David. The legal claim to David's throne is clearly established through Joseph, this is quite clear. Both Peter and Paul accept and affirm this in their preaching. Further Jesus affirms this in Rev 22:16.

(Rev 22:16 NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

If I am wrong, I do not mind admitting it. I am certainly not an expert at Biblical criticism and history.

Today, do orthodox Jews expect a messiah to come who will be a genetic descendant of David, or of the House of Judah?

At any rate, Israel is not reasonable proof that the God of the Bible exists.

DrJim · 12-27-2007, 09:22 AM

The continued existence of the Parsi / Zoroastrian community clearly indicates that Ahura Mazda is the true god.

The reunion of Led Zeppelin with a "Son of Bonham" also indicates something. I'm not sure what, though.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-28-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration.......

What restoration? God promised Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan. Today, Jews do not occupy all of the land of ancient Canaan, and there is not any credible evidence that they ever did.

Your argument that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendants was conditional upon good behavior is ridiculous. That would mean that God would have allowed babies to be killed for what some adults did, and would have allowed obedient adults to be enslaved or killed for what disobedient adults did.

Now are you going to tell us that if all of the Jews had been obedient, none of them would have ever gotten sick or died, and none of them would ever have been killed by one of God's supernatural disasters, and none of them would ever have died in battle?

sugarhitman · 12-28-2007, 04:10 PM

To johnny: My arguement that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendents was conditional upon good behavior is ridiculous??? (try telling the Jews that and see what they say as this is written throughout the Hebrew bible)
"And if you heed Me carefully says the Lord, to bring no burden through the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, but hallow the Sabbath day, to do no work in it then shall enter this city kings and princes sitting on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their princes,.....and this city shall remain forever. But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day......Then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall destroy the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." jeremiah 17 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it....if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." Jeremiah 18. And no I said if the Jews remained obedient they would have gotten all the land promised them. Everyone in this world whether good or bad will get sick and will die. Will have problems and so on. Ridiculous??? No what is ridiculous is that people believe that they can do as they please....and still get blessings from God. That my friend is ridiculous. (Note: Usually people who say things like this are those people who did not recieve punishments by their parents when they committed offenses. But those who did understands well that you dont recieve rewards or good when you do wrong. It is no wonder why there are so many moral anarchists among us today.

Sheshonq · 12-28-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

To johnny: My arguement that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendents was conditional upon good behavior is ridiculous??? (try telling the Jews that and see what they say as this is written throughout the Hebrew bible)

It's a land promise conditioned on good behavior? Are you sure?

I ask because the Hebrew bible shows that the Jews did NOT behave. Given that fact, then clearly they have lost title to Palestine.

In which case, neither you nor they should be insisting that the land belongs to them, since the Jews failed to live up to their end of the contract.

Checkmate.

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12-26-2007, 01:37 PM	#51
JEST2ASK Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central - New York Posts: 4,108	Wondering what does the fact that there are people claiming to be Samaritans (most) living in the nation of Isreal prove. :huh:

12-26-2007, 01:57 PM	#54
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Sugar, What happened to the unbelieving Jews (not believing in Jesus that is) who died in the holocaust? Where are they, Heaven or Hell?

12-27-2007, 09:22 AM	#57
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	The continued existence of the Parsi / Zoroastrian community clearly indicates that Ahura Mazda is the true god. The reunion of Led Zeppelin with a "Son of Bonham" also indicates something. I'm not sure what, though.

12-28-2007, 04:10 PM	#59
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	To johnny: My arguement that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendents was conditional upon good behavior is ridiculous??? (try telling the Jews that and see what they say as this is written throughout the Hebrew bible) "And if you heed Me carefully says the Lord, to bring no burden through the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, but hallow the Sabbath day, to do no work in it then shall enter this city kings and princes sitting on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their princes,.....and this city shall remain forever. But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day......Then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall destroy the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." jeremiah 17 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it....if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." Jeremiah 18. And no I said if the Jews remained obedient they would have gotten all the land promised them. Everyone in this world whether good or bad will get sick and will die. Will have problems and so on. Ridiculous??? No what is ridiculous is that people believe that they can do as they please....and still get blessings from God. That my friend is ridiculous. (Note: Usually people who say things like this are those people who did not recieve punishments by their parents when they committed offenses. But those who did understands well that you dont recieve rewards or good when you do wrong. It is no wonder why there are so many moral anarchists among us today.

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