Johnny Skeptic

But you have said that prophecy is for believers, not for unbelievers. So does 1st Corinthians 14.

You have also said that God used prophecy after the fact to strengthen the faith of believers. That cannot possibly be true. First of all, if Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, that would have strengthened the faith of Jews a lot. Second all, if Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, when those events came true, that would have strengthened the faith of believers a lot, and it would have caused some non-Jews to become Christians.

On the contrary, there is always a need for God to encourage people to make choices that will cause them to go to heaven instead of to hell. It is a question of to what extent a loving God would go in order to encourage people to make choices that would cause them to end up in heaven instead of hell. It is my position that it is improbable that a loving God would be willing to sacrifice his only begotten Son in order to save mankind but refuse to, for instance, inspire Pat Robertson to use the world media to accurately predict when and where a natural disaster would occur, which would surely cause some skeptics to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. You can argue that God has done enough to convince people to believe that he exists, but you would not be able to get away with arguing that God is not able to convince more people to love him, and to accept him. It is no accident that no religious book contains a prophecy of the quality of the hypothetical prophecy that I mentioned.

You have never reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a temple would be rebuilt in Mecca by Muslims, and Muslims rebuilt a temple in Mecca, would you call that a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy?

If God did not make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, since all that it takes in order to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true, that explains why Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

Minimalist

I feel as if I'm always bursting your bubble, Arnoldo, but the Merneptah Stele does not actually say "Israel." In fact, this discussion indicates how minimal (if you'll forgive the pun) the evidence for it truly is. The stele was discovered by Flinders Petrie and....

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/a...ogy-bible.html

The lure of 19th century scholars to equate everything to their precious bible is well attested but Petrie seems to have jumped to a conclusion and everyone else stood up and saluted because it was what they wanted to hear. In fact, the name "Israel" turns up again on the Mesha stele, almost 4 centuries later, and there is no mention of it in between.

Perhaps "Isirir" does not mean "Israel" at all?

spin

It's useful to know that the difference between /l/ and /r/ was not clear in Egyptian, so given the constraints of Egyptian phonology, it's a rather good transcription of Israel. It also by its geographical context, the other names in the list, fits well in a Palestinian context, pointing to the Israel connection. You should also consider that the exodus is limited by the mention of Raamses in Exodus 1:11, a town named after Ramses II. The Merneptah Stele places a tribal group in Palestine in the reign of Merneptah (and probably his deeds were really a repackaging of deeds under Ramses II, see Donald Redford, "Egypt, Canaan and Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk)"), ie when the exodus was supposed to have been happening. The conflict between two unrelated sources tends to support the reality of the common material, ie Israel


spin

blastula

angelo

If Israel is proof of god existing, then the Australian Aborigines have every right to believe their serpent god is the true god as they have existed in this land for 40.000 years. And their claims are backed up by archeology.

sugarhitman

1. Israel restored (you cannot use the argument that because all Jews do not live in Israel, that this is not a restoration. In John ch 7 "You will seek me and not find me, and where I am you cannot come. Then the Jews said among themselves, 'Where does he intend to go that we shall not find him? Does he intend to go to the DISPERSION among the Greeks..." Jews have always lived in other countries besides Israel...but guess what Israel was still referred to as restored Israel after the Babylonian captivity.)

2. Dispute over land and Jerusalem

3. Peace movement for peace in the mid east

4. Hostilty of a united nations


All foretold 100% accuracy! The prophecies of Israel is much better than history because in the present we are witnessing these truths unfold before our very eyes. You can use questionable history all you want....the present refutes you....God lives!

Johnny Skeptic

On the contrary, you have never reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a temple would be rebuilt in Mecca by Muslims, and Muslims rebuilt a temple in Mecca, would you call that a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy?

If God did not make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, since all that it takes in order to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true, that explains why Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

There are not any indisputable prophecies in the Bible. The same is true regarding all prophecies in all religous books. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies since that would mean that God unnecessarily creates doubt and confusion.

Is it your position that God is not able to provide additional evidence that would convince more people to believe that he can predict the future?

arnoldo

Man, you are obsessed with God predicting the future (the indisputable evidence of the existence of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the State of Israel and Christians). The fact that the nation of Israel has existed over 10,000 years (in the land of ISRAEL not Palestine) with definite archaelogical evidence (with a historical diaspora of 2,000 years) gives the Israelis/Jews absolute right to exist in their homeland. In fact, the Jews/Israelies will forever dwell in their homeland despite the raging of the heathen nations.

Johnny Skeptic

However, this thread is about Israel being proof of God's existence, not about whether or not Jews have a right to live in Palestine. You have never reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a temple would be rebuilt in Mecca by Muslims, and Muslims rebuilt a temple in Mecca, would you call that a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy?

If God did not make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, since all that it takes in order to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true, that explains why Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

WVIncagold

so your belief is that exodus happened? magic parted the red sea? magic? you believe i magic? well welcome to hogwarts people. you do know that given the number of people claimed in the bible the had the exodus that you could stand in one place and watch rows of ten pass you by and you would be standing there for 56 days correct? Exodus is a sham and mathematics prove it never happened even if you found evidence but to bad for you there is NO evidence of the exodus.