B.S. Lewis

While you were replying I was trying to edit my post, to say that hell is an English word, but this
$%#! server is so slow that you beat me. So, since it is an English word, they ALL say Hell in the English translations--but obviously none of them say it in the Greek.

Many of them say it is eternal. You posted this reply seconds after my post, you couldn't have looked up more than two or three of them!

Diogenes the Cynic

That's correct, but none of those words, in Hebew or Greek, had the same meaning as the English word "Hell."

The verses you quoted refer to a variety of things, but none of them to a place of eternal, conscious torment after death. One or two of them refer (in Greek) to eternal death but not torment. I can go over every single one of those verses one by one if you want.

B.S. Lewis

You had said that it the verses do not call it eternal. This was incorrect. Now you are saying that they do call it eternal, but that the "it" they call eternal is actually death, and not hell. This may be true, I have to go back and read them--but I'm pretty sure you're still mistaken. I'll read up.

Diogenes the Cynic

I don't have to look them up. I'm familiar with all of them and I know what all of them say in Greek. This is far from the first time I've had this discussion.

None of them say that the torment is eternal. Some say the death is eternal or that the destruction or, in the case of gehenna, that the flames are eternal, but none of them say the torment is eternal.

For that matter, even the Greek word translated as "eternal" doesn't really mean eternal.

Diogenes the Cynic

Here we go:

Matt 3:12: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

"Unquenchable fire." Poetic reference to annihilation in the flames of Gehenna.

Matt 5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

"Hell" in the Greek, is Gehenna, which is a place of annihilation, not eternal torment (also, I think I should point out that Gehenna is not an otherwordly place or an afterlife location, it was a physical place on earth where it was believed that sinners would be killed).

Matt 7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

"The path to destruction," i.e death or annihilation. Nothing to do with an afterlife or eternal punishment.

Matt 8:12: But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"Outer darkness" = death/annihilation.

Matt 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"Hell" in Greek is Gehenna. Note that this verse says the soul itself will be destroyed in Gehenna (actually it says psuche which is more akin to "mind" than "soul," but close enough).

Matt 13:30-50: Parable of the tares. Culminates in a "furnace" allegory as a reference to death/annihilation.

Matt 22:13: Another parable with a king tossing people into "ouer darkness." Another refence to death, and a parable anyway.

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Gehenna again. It's the flames that are eternal, not the torment.

Luke 3:17: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Unquenchable fire again. Death/annihilation, not "Hell."

Luke 16:23: Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. This one says "Hades" in Greek but that's really just a translation of the Hebrew Sheol. Refers to the "Bosom of Abraham," which was part of Sheol. Also refers to the rich man "burning in flames," but this is just a reflection of a later Jewish refinement of Sheol into a good part and a bad part. While there was eventually, som e idea of temporary ounishment in Sheol before the resurrection and judgement of the dead, this punishent was not eternal.

2 Thess 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Destruction. Not torment.

2 Peter 2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

The word translated as "hell" is Tartarus in Greek. That's part of Hades and in this verse it's only talking about angels anyway.

Jude 1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

More angels in chains. Just in "darkness" this time and only "until judgement."

Jude 1:23: And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Poetic allegory urging Christians to save others.

I'm too tired to go through all the Revelation verses but all those verses basically refer to a "lake of fire" where sinners (and death itself) will be annihilated.

Diogenes the Cynic

By "it," I meant the torment. Go ahead and look them up. I'm right.

Alf

Perhaps because he is not a selfish bastard and have compassion for other people?

Alf

Alf

In other words: Don't think, just follow orders! Good soldiers for God's army.

German WW2 soldiers would be perfect soldiers for God. No wonder they had Got Mit Uns on the buckles.

If the christians were right and their God were real, I would be scared to live! He is pure evil.

Alf

Helpmabob

Hi Clarice – The widely held opinion is that Isaiah prophesies Jesus in chapters 52 & 53. He would come to ‘save’ Israel (so they don’t go to Hell).
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. [Isaiah 53:6]
John A Broussard - To respond to this purely logically, my lack of knowledge about the precise details about how God will judge does not affect the likelihood that he will judge every man (and woman), and do it entirely fairly.

John A. Broussard

"Widely held opinion."? Please quote any orthodox, conservative or reform jews to that effect.

In fact, quote any non-Christian scholar to that effect.

There are 6 billion people in the world. How many of those believe that Isaiah phrophesies Jesus? How many have even heard of Isaiah? How many of them worship gods whose existence may be every bit as provable as the existence of your god?

How much have you really looked into such matters before having jumped to the conclusions that you have?

How do you account for the fact that you have a lack of knowledge about details but insist that you know your god will judge fairly? In fact, how do you account for the fact that you know your god exists, yet know virtually nothing about this creature you grovel before?