Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-08-2012, 12:48 AM

The End of an Illusion: How Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" Has Laid the Case for an Historical Jesus to Rest (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

This book-length rebuttal by Earl Doherty to Bart Ehrman's much anticipated and unexpectedly disappointing case for an historical Jesus ("Did Jesus Exist?", published March 2012) first appeared in installments from March to August 2012 on the Vridar blog (under copyright), and is now being offered in e-book form, with extensive minor revisions. It addresses virtually every claim and argument put forward by Ehrman in his book, and demonstrates not only the faultiness and inadequacy of those arguments, but the degree to which the author has been guilty of a range of fallacy, special pleading, and clear a priori bias against the very concept of mythicism and those who promote it. In "Did Jesus Exist?" historicism has demonstrated the bankruptcy of its case for an historical Jesus, while in "The End of an Illusion" Earl Doherty has both exposed the failings of Bart Ehrman's book and further developed the case for the non-existence of any traditional founder of Christianity.

Toto · 11-08-2012, 12:51 AM

Vridar also has notes on Thomas Brodie's take on Ehrman

ApostateAbe · 11-08-2012, 04:50 AM

Do you know if Doherty provides anything resembling evidence for his proposition that there was a "world of myth" commonly believed in the ancient world? He left that out of his previous books, and he has been getting a lot of flack about that from Ehrman and other critics.

Clivedurdle · 11-08-2012, 06:14 AM

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world of myth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

Quote:

In Greek mythology, the Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δώδεκα,[1][2] dōdeka, "twelve"+ θεοί, theoi, "gods"), were the principal deities of the Greek pantheon, residing atop a mythical Mount Olympus. The Olympians gained their supremacy in a war of gods in which Zeus led his siblings to victory over the Titans.

The concept of the "Twelve Gods" is older than any extant Greek or Roman sources, and is likely of Anatolian origin.[3] The gods meet in council in the Homeric epics, but the first ancient reference to religious ceremonies for the Olympians collectively is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. The Greek cult of the Twelve Olympians can be traced to 6th-century BC Athens and probably has no precedent in the Mycenaean period. The altar to the Twelve Olympians at Athens is usually dated to the archonship of the younger Pesistratos, in 522/521 BC.

There was some variation as to which deities were included,[4] but the canonical twelve as commonly portrayed in art and poetry were Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Hestia or Dionysus, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus and Hermes.

Sometimes I do not understand people's base assumptions and I would be pleased if they would explain what did not exist "in the ancient world"

I know Jaynes gets critiqued, but he is in agreement with Jung that myth and archetype are core facts of what homo sapiens is. We probably should be renamed homo dreamers!

aa5874 · 11-08-2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Do you know if Doherty provides anything resembling evidence for his proposition that there was a "world of myth" commonly believed in the ancient world? He left that out of his previous books, and he has been getting a lot of flack about that from Ehrman and other critics.

"Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman has destroyed the HJ argument forever.

The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth is a Failure of Facts and Logic according to Carrier.

It is time to jump ship or go down with the single worst argument in the history of mankind.

These are the "suicidal" words of the HJ argument from Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" page 182.

Quote:

It is absolutely true, in my judgment, that the New Testament accounts of Jesus are filled with discrepancies and contradictions in matters both large and small.

The Bell Tolls for the HJ argument.

ApostateAbe · 11-08-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

world of myth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

Quote:

In Greek mythology, the Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δώδεκα,[1][2] dōdeka, "twelve"+ θεοί, theoi, "gods"), were the principal deities of the Greek pantheon, residing atop a mythical Mount Olympus. The Olympians gained their supremacy in a war of gods in which Zeus led his siblings to victory over the Titans.

The concept of the "Twelve Gods" is older than any extant Greek or Roman sources, and is likely of Anatolian origin.[3] The gods meet in council in the Homeric epics, but the first ancient reference to religious ceremonies for the Olympians collectively is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. The Greek cult of the Twelve Olympians can be traced to 6th-century BC Athens and probably has no precedent in the Mycenaean period. The altar to the Twelve Olympians at Athens is usually dated to the archonship of the younger Pesistratos, in 522/521 BC.

There was some variation as to which deities were included,[4] but the canonical twelve as commonly portrayed in art and poetry were Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Hestia or Dionysus, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus and Hermes.

Sometimes I do not understand people's base assumptions and I would be pleased if they would explain what did not exist "in the ancient world"

I know Jaynes gets critiqued, but he is in agreement with Jung that myth and archetype are core facts of what homo sapiens is. We probably should be renamed homo dreamers!

I should clarify. The basis of Earl Doherty's model is that the ancients believed in a "world of myth" where beings existed that was distinct from the observable physical world. The ancients allegedly believed in not just unobserved beings but an inobservable environment.

aa5874 · 11-08-2012, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I should clarify. The basis of Earl Doherty's model is that the ancients believed in a "world of myth" where beings existed that was distinct from the observable physical world. The ancients allegedly believed in not just unobserved beings but an inobservable environment.

Well, Jesus of Nazareth was one of those unobserved being who existed in an unobserved environment called "heaven".

Virtually all sources of antiquity that used books of the NT claimed Jesus was born of a Holy Ghost and a Virgin.

Doherty is right.

You must admit that Jesus was an unobserved being.

Examine the ENTIRE NT Canon--ALL the WORDS.

Nil-NONE-ZERO--Not one author of the Canon claimed they personally observed Jesus.

Ehrman is dead wrong and illogical.

Jesus of Nazareth had NO witnesses in the Canon.

Jesus of Nazareth is an unobserved being.

Doherty is right--Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the mythology of the Greeks and Roman.
Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower...

EarlDoherty · 11-08-2012, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Do you know if Doherty provides anything resembling evidence for his proposition that there was a "world of myth" commonly believed in the ancient world? He left that out of his previous books, and he has been getting a lot of flack about that from Ehrman and other critics.

Bullshit. You've been listening to people like GakuseiDon who reviewed my last book with his eyes closed. I have reams of material in Jesus: Neither God Nor Man supporting my "world of myth." Why don't you read my books yourself, instead of relying on those who have made it their life's work to discredit mythicism and my case in particular, no matter how much misrepresentation they have to resort to.

And clearly, you didn't read my Vridar series and learn how Ehrman's "flack" against my books was so full of mistakes and misrepresentations that one could easily suspect that he did not actually read them himself. A little like your own approach to mythicism: condemn it without bothering to investigate what it actually puts forward.

You never learn, do you Abe?

Earl Doherty

EarlDoherty · 11-08-2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

world of myth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

Quote:

In Greek mythology, the Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δώδεκα,[1][2] dōdeka, "twelve"+ θεοί, theoi, "gods"), were the principal deities of the Greek pantheon, residing atop a mythical Mount Olympus. The Olympians gained their supremacy in a war of gods in which Zeus led his siblings to victory over the Titans.

The concept of the "Twelve Gods" is older than any extant Greek or Roman sources, and is likely of Anatolian origin.[3] The gods meet in council in the Homeric epics, but the first ancient reference to religious ceremonies for the Olympians collectively is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. The Greek cult of the Twelve Olympians can be traced to 6th-century BC Athens and probably has no precedent in the Mycenaean period. The altar to the Twelve Olympians at Athens is usually dated to the archonship of the younger Pesistratos, in 522/521 BC.

There was some variation as to which deities were included,[4] but the canonical twelve as commonly portrayed in art and poetry were Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Hestia or Dionysus, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus and Hermes.

Sometimes I do not understand people's base assumptions and I would be pleased if they would explain what did not exist "in the ancient world"

I know Jaynes gets critiqued, but he is in agreement with Jung that myth and archetype are core facts of what homo sapiens is. We probably should be renamed homo dreamers!

I should clarify. The basis of Earl Doherty's model is that the ancients believed in a "world of myth" where beings existed that was distinct from the observable physical world. The ancients allegedly believed in not just unobserved beings but an inobservable environment.

And just how does that differ from modern religious believers who envision an entire supernatural world of heaven and hell lying 'beyond' the material world, populated by unobserved beings (saints and devils) in an inobservable environment? Since our own modern culture can believe in such a thing, why do you and sham scholars like GDon deny its existence in first century belief?

Earl Doherty

Steven Carr · 11-08-2012, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Do you know if Doherty provides anything resembling evidence for his proposition that there was a "world of myth" commonly believed in the ancient world? He left that out of his previous books, and he has been getting a lot of flack about that from Ehrman and other critics.

Do you mean the 'Jerusalem above us' that Paul mentions?

Or the 'third heaven' that Paul mentions?

Or the heavenly tabernacle that the author of Hebrews mentions?

Everytime somebody says there was no world of myth above us , they refuse to explain where this 'Jerusalem above us' was, if it wasn't above us?

Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

Where was this tabernacle that Christ went through? After all, nobody believed in a 'world of myth'. Perhaps the author of Hebrews was the first Mormon and believed this tabernacle was in Missouri....

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11-08-2012, 12:51 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Vridar also has notes on Thomas Brodie's take on Ehrman

11-08-2012, 04:50 AM	#3
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Do you know if Doherty provides anything resembling evidence for his proposition that there was a "world of myth" commonly believed in the ancient world? He left that out of his previous books, and he has been getting a lot of flack about that from Ehrman and other critics.

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