lycanthrope

hi

i was reading about this website on Jesus and i scroll down to this juicy bit which boldly claimed that:

"The evidence of Jesus's 'human existence', far from being confirmed and agreed by early Christians, was a matter of ferocious contention. Many Christians between the 1st - 4th century had NO belief in a flesh and blood Jesus; it was offensive to their particular interpretation of the divine"

if my memory serves me correctly, the Gnostics did not believe in a literal Christ, is that true?

http://jesusneverexisted.com/circus.html

EffBeeEye

from "Gnostic Christianity - An Overview"

"Most Gnostics also believed that Christ was entirely divine, and that the human side of Jesus was like a "garment" which Christ could shed, or was entirely an illusion taken so that Christ could educate humans."

from "Gnosticism"
"Dr. Ken Johnson teaches on Gnosticism"

"The basic teachings of Gnosticism that the church called heresy are:
1 - 6
7 Christ descended upon Jesus at his baptism and left before Jesus went before pilot. Sophia would not allow Christ to suffer "
8 - 14"

THIS GOOGLE might give more naterial too.

All in all it appears that it could go either way.

andrewcriddle

Some Gnostics believed that although Jesus while on earth appeared to be genuine flesh and blood he wasn't really.

They were not disagreeing with the orthodox about what seemed to be going on in Palestine c 30 CE, they were claiming that appearances were in this case deceptive.

Andrew Criddle

Lógos Sokratikós

In addition to the christological differences, what others were there between orthodox and gnostics?

andrewcriddle

Gnostics were a rather varied group.
However, They generally tended to believe that the God of the Old Testament, the Creator of the World, was a quite different being to the Supreme God who sent Christ to deliver us from the errors of the World Creator.

Andrew Criddle

ChuckE99

Is there a passage in any of the canonical gospels (hopefully, in GMark) that points to Christ leaving Jesus before he went before Pilate?

EffBeeEye

Not that I know of - We Christians belive that Jesus *IS* the Christ. After his death he went to hell for three days to pay for our sins; and then directly to heaven - express ride - no stops - no cloaks. The gnostics made up the separation scheme I believe although I couldn't tell you where it came from. I am sure there is basis in scripture *somehwere* just like the Jehovas Witless.

The closest to "leaving" Jesus would be in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus prayed - He knew He was about to die and asked His father to be recused from dying. I guess ne could stretch that into Christ "leaving" Jesus and Jesus being purely huan at that point.

However I do believe Jesus *WAS* human - he just happened to be blessed with this life of incredible powers and a very persuasive man. Remember he was a rabbi and to be a successful rabbi one must be very persuasive.

At any rate I don't think the two ever separated.

Cesc

I think Paul was often a gnostic. The "gnosis" being the "knowledge" makes Colossians almost completely gnostic, imo. The "fulness", the "kingdom of light", JC is "the image of the invisible God", "God rescued us from the dominion of darkness", and so on...

Often I tend to think that Christianity is merely another version of gnosticism, rather than "gnosticism" being another version of Christianity!

mountainman

Once you had a christian emperor, there was the army, which was in the service of the imperial authodoxy. You will find that the stabilisation of "authodox christologies" occurred rather late (under Cyril of Alexandria) and that the period prior to the burning of the Alexandrian library is the ground to be examined.


That there were non christian gnostics is now understood after the Nag Hammadi codices were translated and examined. What the non christian gnostics believed is difficult to say, since before the evidence from Nag Hammaidi, the planet had to rely on Eusebius' version of the heretics. IMO the literary figure of Clerk Jesus Kent did not appear until the fourth century, at which time the real gnostics emboddied in the ancient temple structure of the empire:

1) had some of their chief priest executed.
2) had some of their most revered ancient temples utterly destroyed.
3) were prohibited from traditional (ancient) temple services
4) many fled as refugees to become desert ascetics.
5) the "heretical works of the heretics" were sought out and destroyed.
6) the gnostics took to writing syriac and coptic, not latin or greek
7) all opposition to christianity was suppressed by the christian emperor's army



Best wishes


Pete

mountainman

I think Paul was a Eusebian forgery.

Best wishes,



Pete