Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 09-16-2012, 12:12 PM

More than twelve? Less than twelve? I am going with twelve, though I would love to hear arguments that conclude otherwise. The plausibility is supplied by Josephus' account of the following of John the Baptist, and the explanatory power is supplied by the seeming unity of the sources on the point that the number was twelve, though divided on their identities. My hypothesis is that a bunch of the disciples left the cult in disillusionment after the crucifixion of Jesus, and their personalities were simply not discussed openly by the remaining members, as is typical in cults. Bart Ehrman makes what seems to be a good argument, that Jesus consciously chose the number twelve because it corresponds to the twelve tribes of Israel, and Jesus promised that each disciple would rule a tribe (Matthew 19:28). This promise would conflict with a later point of the gospel narrative, that one of those twelve would betray Jesus and die in shame, so the claim that there were twelve and only twelve original disciples seems to pass the criterion of embarrassment.

Who are the academics with dissenting opinions about the quantity?

Toto · 09-16-2012, 12:39 PM

The Seven Apostles by Peter Kirby (2003)

Quote:

John 21:2. "There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael who was of Cana of Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples."

If you count these, there are seven disciples mentioned. If you look up above, you will find that Papias also mentions seven disciples: Andrew, Peter, Philip, Thomas, James, John, and Matthew. Papias mentions Judas elsewhere but does not mention him as an apostle here. The Gospel of the Ebionites mentions eight people; the additional four names inserted by M. R. James are a conjectural emendation so that the list adds up to twelve, in accord with the mention of the twelve in Epiphanius' quote, but it is possible that two different traditions are reflected in this quote. If Judas may be excluded, as he is in Papias, the Jewish-Christian Gospel mentioned by Epiphanius names seven disciples: John and James the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew and Thaddaeus and Simon the Zealot and Matthew.

So we have three lists of seven: John, Papias, and the Ebionite Gospel quoted by Epiphanius.

Read more at the link.

Vridar has a useful post here on the scholarship on the 12.

Quote:

Are the twelve a mere legend?

Allison lists several names who believe they are: Bultmann, Andries van Aarde, Günter Klein, Philipp Vielhauer, Walter Schmithals.

One reason for doubting their historicity is 1 Corinthians 15:5 read through the perspective of the later Gospels. The Gospel narratives tell us that there were only eleven disciples who witnessed the resurrected Jesus, Judas having left the group. 1 Cor. 15:5 claims that Jesus appeared to “the twelve”.

This, of course, indicates that Judas was one of those to whom the resurrected Christ appeared. Schmithals has reasoned that Judas was therefore a post-Easter heretic, and the twelve themselves did not exist as a group until after Easter. They were later backdated to the time of Jesus, along with the apostacy of Judas.

Dale Allison describes Schmithals’ suggestion as a

series of conjectures, for which there is no real evidence (p. 68)

Allison then proceeds to replace this conjecture with another, and finds “supporting evidence” in the names of Greek and Roman political entities.

...

aa5874 · 09-16-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

More than twelve? Less than twelve? I am going with twelve, though I would love to hear arguments that conclude otherwise. The plausibility is supplied by Josephus' account of the following of John the Baptist, and the explanatory power is supplied by the seeming unity of the sources on the point that the number was twelve, though divided on their identities. My hypothesis is that a bunch of the disciples left the cult in disillusionment after the crucifixion of Jesus, and their personalities were simply not discussed openly by the remaining members, as is typical in cults. Bart Ehrman makes what seems to be a good argument, that Jesus consciously chose the number twelve because it corresponds to the twelve tribes of Israel, and Jesus promised that each disciple would rule a tribe (Matthew 19:28). This promise would conflict with a later point of the gospel narrative, that one of those twelve would betray Jesus and die in shame, so the claim that there were twelve and only twelve original disciples seems to pass the criterion of embarrassment.

Who are the academics with dissenting opinions about the quantity?

That's a trick question!!! The "historical Jesus" had ZERO disciples.

The "historical Jesus" means a human Jesus with a human father and there is NO such character in the NT.

Please, present your sources for your "historical Jesus" so we can get the number of disciples that followed him.

You have introduced gMatthew to support your argument so I MUST examine gMatthew to determine who Jesus was.

You introduced Matthew 19.28 but what about Matthew 1.18, 4.5, 14.21, 15.38, 17.1-2, 28.6 and 28.17
In gMatthew Jesus was Non-historical.

In gMatthew the Non-historical Jesus had 12 disciples.

Matthew 1.18 clearly shows Jesus was non-historical, the Son of a Ghost, and Matthew 10 claimed Jesus had 12 Disciples who he called Apostles.

Matthew 10

Quote:

1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples............2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is calledPeter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname wasThaddaeus;4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him

There is NO Source for your Historical Jesus so we don't know when he lived, what he did or if he could have lived and had disciples.

Name a disciple of your human Jesus???

You are NOT using the same admitted discredited sources for history are you???

You have invented your "historical Jesus" so you should know how much disciples you Imagined he had.

Toto · 09-16-2012, 02:54 PM

More from the Vridar link above:

Quote:

The Jesus Seminar argument for the nonexistence of the twelve in the (first) lifetime of Jesus

....

Funk finds significance in the absence of any mention of the twelve in the following:

the earliest layer of the Sayings Gospel Q
the Gospel of Thomas
the Didache (apart from in the title which was not original)
the first letter of Clement to the church at Corinth, ca 96 ce
the letters of Ignatius, ca 110-117 ce

Support for “this highly symbolic designation” depends upon:

the Gospel of Mark
the later layer of Q
a single reference in Paul (1 Cor. 15:5)

Funk adds:

However, Paul does not seem to know the twelve as an actual group of leaders with special authority. Instead, he is acquainted with an inner circle of “pillars” to which he refers in his letter to the Galatians (2:1-10). (p. 69 in Allison)

John Dominic Crossan has said:

If the institution of Twelve Apostles, with all its profound symbolic connotations, had been established by Jesus during his lifetime, it would have been more widely known and noted. (p. 70 in Allison)

So it does not seem that there is a real scholarly consensus over the existence or composition of "The Twelve."

I do not see how anything about John the Baptist supports the existence of 12 disciples of Jesus.

Your move.

I have to agree

its all over the board for 12, I personally couldnt swallw it.

Sheshbazzar · 09-16-2012, 09:25 PM

No physically existent Jebus. No 'twelve', no 'eleven', nor ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, two, or one. Zip.
Just a bunch of fabricated religious fairy tales strung together.
God myths are myths, NOT history.

ApostateAbe · 09-16-2012, 09:49 PM

Thank you, Toto, I appreciate it.

outhouse · 09-16-2012, 10:14 PM

the reality of the situation dictates he went around Galilee with 3 or 4 of his fishermen buddies and a tax collector.

any more then that and they would have starved. homeless bums mooching meals by teaching and scaring out demons for health care in rural villages would not sustain a following as large as 12.

Huon · 09-17-2012, 05:40 AM

gJohn speaks of disciples.

Bartholomew, Matthew the publican, James son of Alpheus, Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean and Jude brother of James are not mentioned in gJohn.
Nathanael is mentioned only in gJohn 1:45.

Iskander · 09-17-2012, 06:17 AM

And nobody mentioned Sneezy. Shame!

09-16-2012, 12:12 PM	#1
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	How many disciples did the historical Jesus have? More than twelve? Less than twelve? I am going with twelve, though I would love to hear arguments that conclude otherwise. The plausibility is supplied by Josephus' account of the following of John the Baptist, and the explanatory power is supplied by the seeming unity of the sources on the point that the number was twelve, though divided on their identities. My hypothesis is that a bunch of the disciples left the cult in disillusionment after the crucifixion of Jesus, and their personalities were simply not discussed openly by the remaining members, as is typical in cults. Bart Ehrman makes what seems to be a good argument, that Jesus consciously chose the number twelve because it corresponds to the twelve tribes of Israel, and Jesus promised that each disciple would rule a tribe (Matthew 19:28). This promise would conflict with a later point of the gospel narrative, that one of those twelve would betray Jesus and die in shame, so the claim that there were twelve and only twelve original disciples seems to pass the criterion of embarrassment. Who are the academics with dissenting opinions about the quantity?

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09-16-2012, 09:25 PM	#6
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	No physically existent Jebus. No 'twelve', no 'eleven', nor ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, two, or one. Zip. Just a bunch of fabricated religious fairy tales strung together. God myths are myths, NOT history.

09-16-2012, 09:49 PM	#7
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Thank you, Toto, I appreciate it.

09-16-2012, 10:14 PM	#8
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	the reality of the situation dictates he went around Galilee with 3 or 4 of his fishermen buddies and a tax collector. any more then that and they would have starved. homeless bums mooching meals by teaching and scaring out demons for health care in rural villages would not sustain a following as large as 12.

09-17-2012, 05:40 AM	#9
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	gJohn speaks of disciples. Bartholomew, Matthew the publican, James son of Alpheus, Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean and Jude brother of James are not mentioned in gJohn. Nathanael is mentioned only in gJohn 1:45.

09-17-2012, 06:17 AM	#10
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	And nobody mentioned Sneezy. Shame!

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