Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-13-2006, 06:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Hi Johnny,

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Why do you as a mere mortal presume to know what an evil God will choose to do?

Ok, we both of us make rather too many presumptions about how a god might act under certain circumstances. For example consider your next assertion:

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If an evil God exists, there wouldn't be any elect.

This might be wrong because an evil god has chosen to elect people on some crazy basis. How would we know anything, or make any reasonable judgements about anything? We become like the Philosopher in Ecclesiastes, everything is meaningless. But a good God as revealed in the Bible bring the promise of meaningfulness into one’s life.

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Which "many good things" are you referring to?

I was encouraging Sven to count his blessings; mine are such things as food, water, health, fitness, a home, a job, holidays and sport. Even the internet.

Your problem is that even if intelligent design is a given, and even if it is a given that the God who is depicted in the Bible is the designer, the odds are at best 50/50 that he will send his followers to heaven and not send them to hell. In other words, it just as plausible that he might be lying and intend to send everyone to hell. If a lying, evil Devil is reasonably possible, then so is a lying, evil God. A lying, evil God might very well derive pleasure out of appearing to be good.

gee · 01-13-2006, 10:30 AM

Johnny Skeptic;

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If a lying, evil Devil is reasonably possible, then so is a lying, evil God.

This really doesn't make sense.
If what you say is true.

A lying-evil God wouldn't be good. Right? What is "good" then?

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Your problem is that even if intelligent design is a given, and even if it is a given that the God who is depicted in the Bible is the designer

"Evil" makes no sense unless you have some definition of "good" in which to measure it.

"Evil" implies "good" somewhere.

Where would you; an atheist (or at least a skeptic by your name), find this?

In addition;

If both God and satan were evil - then you wouldn't have the God depicted in the Bible.

gee

BruceWane · 01-13-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gee

Johnny Skeptic;

This really doesn't make sense.
If what you say is true.

A lying-evil God wouldn't be good. Right? What is "good" then?

"Evil" makes no sense unless you have some definition of "good" in which to measure it.

"Evil" implies "good" somewhere.

Why, yes it does. But note that "somewhere" does not restrict the possibilities to only a diety. The "good" could be right here on earth, in existing with your fellow man.

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If both God and satan were evil - then you wouldn't have the God depicted in the Bible.

gee

Suppose god was evil - why would he be interested in essentially warning all the humans by openly depicting himself as such?

Note the origin of the term "con man". "Con" is short for "confidence". But the ultimate goal of a con man is to decieve you out of something (usually money, but obviously the most valuable "currency" to a diety is your soul). He does this by endeavoring to make you feel confidence in his honesty and integrity, then using your trust to enable him to steal from you.

Helpmabob · 01-14-2006, 02:35 AM

Dear Johnny -

Quote:

A lying, evil God might very well derive pleasure out of appearing to be good.

You know the saying, when you run a computer programme, if you put in the wrong data to start, you get a wrong answer, irrespective of how powerful the computer. Rubbish in; rubbish out. Similarly,if we assume that God is deceptive, then no matter how we discuss the matter, we we will be confounded.

Still, you can use it to render all discussion futile, if that is what you want.

DBT · 01-14-2006, 03:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Similarly,if we assume that God is deceptive, then no matter how we discuss the matter, we we will be confounded.

But are we assuming that God, if He exists, is deceptive, evil, or at best incompetent?
Or is it the only conclusion we can draw when we considering the existence of evil in the world, a universe containing many errors, mistakes, etc?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-14-2006, 05:27 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

A lying, evil God might very well derive pleasure out of appearing to be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

You know the saying, when you run a computer programme, if you put in the wrong data to start, you get a wrong answer, irrespective of how powerful the computer. Rubbish in; rubbish out. Similarly, if we assume that God is deceptive, then no matter how we discuss the matter, we we will be confounded.

My position is not that God is deceptive. My current position, which is addressed towards Christians who believe that God will provide them with a comfortable eternal life, is that there are at least four possibilities, that 1) God will provide believers with a comfortable eternal life, 2) an evil God is masquerading as a good God and will send everyone to hell, 3) God is amoral and it is unknown what he will do to believers and everyone else after they die, and 4) there are no credible means by which we can choose which possibility is most likely.

Gawen · 01-14-2006, 08:54 AM

[QUOTE=Helpmabob]

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Originally Posted by helpmabob

If God is evil and deceptive, can anything substantial be said? On the other hand there is purpose to everything when believing that a good God is in charge.

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What might be the point of that? If this is the case, then we are all doomed, and nothing sensible can be said about anything; we might as well all kill ourselves now.

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I can say nothing worthwhile in respect of this concept, except that it does not seem right. If we are all being deluded, then we might as well all pack up and go home.

It utterly amazes me the defeatist attitude many theists get when they think otherwise of the preconceived and/or learnt 'knowledge' of their all good God. The futility of living is so great. It disgusts me to no end. Instead of helping themselves and their fellow humanity, their selfishness and contempt of humanity is so great that they'd rather die....:angry: :angry: :angry:

Evoken · 01-14-2006, 09:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

If this is the case, then we are all doomed, and nothing sensible can be said about anything; we might as well all kill ourselves now. If God is evil and deceptive, can anything substantial be said? On the other hand there is purpose to everything when believing that a good God is in charge.

How does the belief that a benevolent God exists adds anything to our existence? How is the fact that God is good or evil relevant?

If your God is evil, then all we can say about it is that you have been tricked into believing he was good. That has no impact whatsoever over our existence or Nature. It is all in your mind.

Valz

gee · 01-14-2006, 09:37 AM

BruceWane;

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The "good" could be right here on earth, in existing with your fellow man.

Who? Some would say Pat Robertson. Some would say Bin Laden.

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Suppose god was evil

Here's where it breaks down.
What is evil?
If you put "evil" on the table - that implies a "good".
Without a good case to define this the argument doesn't make any sense.

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Note the origin of the term "con man". "Con" is short for "confidence". But the ultimate goal of a con man is to decieve you out of something (usually money, but obviously the most valuable "currency" to a diety is your soul). He does this by endeavoring to make you feel confidence in his honesty and integrity, then using your trust to enable him to steal from you.

If this is the case; the god you're making up isn't smart. This whole problem of pain doesn't make for a good con.

gee

King of Men · 01-14-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valz

How does the belief that a benevolent God exists adds anything to our existence? How is the fact that God is good or evil relevant?

If your God is evil, then all we can say about it is that you have been tricked into believing he was good. That has no impact whatsoever over our existence or Nature. It is all in your mind.

Valz

I think perhaps comrade Helpmabob was referring more to the concept of a deceptive God, rather than an evil one. It's like the 'this is the Matrix' argument : Sure, it could be, but if you make that assumption there is really nothing more to be said. If we are living in the Matrix, then how can we argue about anything? We have no data!

That said, though, I think perhaps Helpmabob takes it a bit far. One needn't assume that the deceptive god is being deceptive about everything, as is the case with the Matrix. Just motivations and perhaps a bit of historical evidence would be sufficient.

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