Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Failte · 10-02-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Well, for starters, it's not my own interpretation. This comes from pretty much every bible scholar I have met. Online and in person

And, once again, this contradicts what everyone else here has experienced. Which scholars? Where is their work? What evidence can you produce for this other than "someone else says?" Others on this list, more educated than I, have shown you that no, biblical scholars do not agree with you. Period. And that doesn't even begin to address the question of whether Jesus said any of it at all, or it was just made up by later authors to shape doctrine.

It may well be that the interpretation of that particular passage should be "put god first", but the arguments you have proposed to support that interpretation are weak. That's what we're coming back to time and again.

Quote:

so it just baffles me at why modern english speaking people would assume Jesus was saying hate your parents.

Because that's what the word says. Whether it was hyperbole or meant to be taken literally, that is the meaning of the words. Now, I don't think you can read the bible literally, but the meaning of a greek word in a greek gospel is really not up for dispute. I'd be behind you completely if your assertion was that, to you, this passage means 'love god more', but to argue semantics with people on this forum who are well educated in the languages that the bible is written in is simply stubbornness and refusal to admit that you are wrong.

spin · 10-02-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

From my research, I found out that Jesus is love, and I highly disbelieve he was going around Jerusalem preaching to HATE your parents or you're going to Hell!

Research isn't quite the right word, though it sounds better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Jesus said, have you not heard the laws of Moses? You are to honor thy mother and father.

The Old Testament says, Anyone who disrespects his parents shall be put to death.

Jesus said, Do not think I have come to abolish the laws of old, but I have come to fulfill them.

I'm sure Jesus was pretty smart when it came to the O.T Texts.

By him saying hate your parents, that totally discards everything the O.T spoke about.

You guys need to start thinking for yourself, instead of getting your information from skepticsannotatedbible.com

You seem to spend more time there than I have. Any time is more time by the way.

And you assume

that Jesus existed (quite unsubstantiated), and
uniformity of views in the bible for some unstated reason. (There are sufficient counterexamples to make you reconsider.)

Making such rash assumptions means you cannot know much about what you are trying to talk about.

spin

Dark Virtue · 10-02-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Really? Where in the context of Lk. 14:26 does Jesus say that anyone who follows him must love God or his family? After all, if you're saying that it's a literary construction meaning "you must love your father and mother less than God," where is the follower instructed to love God? Your prior example, on which you're attempting to build a case, of the contrast of "love" and "hate" in Gen. 29:30-31 (the LXX, which would have been known to the NT writers, used agapw and misew) builds on the interplay of the two words. Yet there is no agapw in the discourse in Lk. 14:25-35, only misew. A parallel construction can't work if only half the parallel is there.

What's interesting is that this verse does have a pretty clear meaning in its context, but it isn't the apologetic "love them less than God." Jesus says "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." (14:27, all cites are from NASB) and "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." (14:33). He is not asking for God to come first and other affections second - he is saying that discipleship must be a follower's sole concern in life. If you are to be a Christian, you are commanded to not only believe in Jesus, but to follow him without regard for possessions, family or (and this is quite clear from the "carry his own cross" line) your own life.

Now, this isn't family friendly, so conservative Christians really want Jesus to not have said the bit about hating your family. And it's clear, to some degree, he was being emphatic - you need to devote yourself to the point where you despise your family. But it's twisting the plain meaning to make this into "well, you should love your family but love God more."

How many Christians hate their parents because of these verses? Do you think the Pope hates his parents? Do you believe Billy Graham hates his parents? What about Joel Osteen? Do you believe all of these men despise their parents, so they can be a disciple of Jesus?

Twisting the words of God is forbidden, and you might be condemned to hell.

The Pope, Billy Graham and Joel Osteen...not exactly the best examples of Christianity.

spamandham · 10-02-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I've noticed you couldn't come to a conclusion. I would think out of all people on the earth, the POPE would certainly follow the laws of Jesus, and that would be to despise our own parents.

...just as the Pope has sold all he owns to give to the poor, like all the Christians on this planet. Even at the highest levels, Christians don't take Jesus' nonsense seriously.

show_no_mercy · 10-02-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I'm sure Jesus was pretty smart when it came to the O.T Texts.

Probably not, since he was illiterate.

show_no_mercy · 10-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

But why would the Old Testament say to kill anyone who disobeys their parents, but Jesus comes along and says hate your parents?

Why would the Old Testament say to kill anyone who works on the sabbath, but Jesus comes along and works on the sabbath?

spamandham · 10-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I'm sure Jesus was pretty smart when it came to the O.T Texts.

Probably not, since he was illiterate.

He's only illiterate when it's time to make excuses for the fact we have no writings from him. At all other times, he's a Jewish scholar who we know was literate because he wrote something in the sand.

semiopen · 10-02-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Probably not, since he was illiterate.

He's only illiterate when it's time to make excuses for the fact we have no writings from him. At all other times, he's a Jewish scholar who we know was literate because he wrote something in the sand.

If Rabbi Jesus had a fight with Baby Jesus, who would win?

jakejonesiv · 10-02-2009, 12:32 PM

Why did Jesussay if you don't hate your mother you are going straight tohell? "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (John 2:4). That was just a nice way to tell his own mother to go tohell when she bugged him to make grape koolade.

graymouser · 10-02-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

How many Christians hate their parents because of these verses? Do you think the Pope hates his parents? Do you believe Billy Graham hates his parents? What about Joel Osteen? Do you believe all of these men despise their parents, so they can be a disciple of Jesus?

Twisting the words of God is forbidden, and you might be condemned to hell.

If "twisting the words of God is forbidden," as you put it, why is your apologetic attempt to justify not hating your parents, your wife and your children, not twisting the words of God? According to the author of Luke, Jesus was pretty straightforward about this whole "hate your parents" thing - you should stop giving a damn about your family, take up your cross, give up your possessions and follow Christ if you want salvation.

The fact that many Christians don't hate their parents doesn't prove anything; after all, how many Christians do you know who would actually turn the other cheek if you hit them? Many people who say they are Christians would more than likely give you a black eye for a black eye, even though it goes totally against the teachings of Jesus. How many Christians do you know of who actually give up all their possessions (Lk. 14:33)? Christians don't follow much of the Bible except for the bits and pieces that are in current vogue.

In any case, what Christians do today has no bearing whatsoever on the translation of misew in Lk. 14:26. I've given you an analysis based on the actual context of the verse as to what it should mean, which you haven't answered. Why don't you comment on this rather than asking me questions about the Pope and Billy Graham?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-02-2009, 12:32 PM	#499
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Why did Jesussay if you don't hate your mother you are going straight tohell? "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (John 2:4). That was just a nice way to tell his own mother to go tohell when she bugged him to make grape koolade.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.