Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 09-22-2009, 03:26 PM

Here's a map of the land that was promised to Abraham

As you can see, the current state of Israel is in no way equal to the land (from the Nile to the Euphrates) promised to the Jews by their god.

badger3k · 09-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Yes, Jesus said "watch for these signs, and you know the time is near".

it doesn't matter when it was written. Jesus said when you see these signs you will know the time is near. He could have been talking about 98ad or the year 2015. It's actually irrelevant when the signs are being witnessed in our lifetime.

Like I've said previously, The Christians from the past were not obviously watching for the signs.

You have GOT to be kidding me!

How can you possibly make this statement?

Christians have anxiously been awaiting Christ's return for over two thousand years!

Paul obviously expected the Return to happen in his lifetime, and as most of us probably know, the scriptures were changed when it didn't. Of course, maybe they werent True Christians, or were unaware that they had to wait for Russia, Iran, and the new state of Israel to appear and thus were looking in the wrong places.

premjan · 09-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Sounds like Assyria-envy.

Sai · 09-22-2009, 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel returning to it's homeland in 1948 after two thousand years in exile is not a invalid prophecy.

Of course it is, as I have told you on many occassions in the past. Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 17:1-8

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Obviously, the partition of Palestine in 1948 was not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy since verse 8 says "all of the land of Canaan." From 1948 through today, the Jews have not occupied and/or controlled anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and certainly not as an everlasting possession since there is not any historical evidence that Hebrews have ever occupied all of the land of Canaan.

The words "everlasting possession" surely indicated to ancient Hebrews that their descendants would have "all" of Canaan as an everlasting possession for many generations in this life, certainly not in a future life.

You should acquaint yourself with the issue of "self-fulfilled" prophecies. One link that discusses self-fulfilled prophecies is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy. Consider the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece and ancient India, it is 20th-century sociologist Robert K. Merton who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton gives as a feature of the self-fulfilling prophecy: Ie: when Roxanna falsely believes that her marriage will fail and fears such failure will occur that it actually causes the marriage to fail.

"The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning."

In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.

Logically, all that it takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is desire, and sufficient power. That is just simple common sense. If you predicted that you would go to school on Monday, and you went to school on Monday, all that it took for you to "fulfill" your prediction was desire and sufficient power, which you had, and certainly not supernatural power.

Regarding the Partition of Palestine in 1948, as far as I recall, the vote was 33nations for the partition, and 13 nations against the partition. Regarding the 33 nations that voted for the partition, every government except for one government, the Russian government, was predominantly Christian, in other words, a stacked deck based upon the Bible, and of the 13 nations that voted against the partition, only one government, the Greek government, was predominantly Christian, but according to one source that I forget, only a nominally Christian government.

No rational person would claim that religious based bias and military power did not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine in 1948.

Look what Americans did with Manifest Destiny. jerUSAlem? its eerie.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Good lord, you're all over the place. This is from *Zechariah*, not Ezekiel. All you're doing is cutting snippets from here and there completely out of context and inventing an apocalypse from it.

You said "Good Lord"

And yes, you're correct. I stated Ezekiel by mistake. That is my error.

Deus Ex · 09-22-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Good lord, you're all over the place. This is from *Zechariah*, not Ezekiel. All you're doing is cutting snippets from here and there completely out of context and inventing an apocalypse from it.

You said "Good Lord"

I always knew spamandham was a closet xian. This proves it.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

You said "Good Lord"

I always knew spamandham was a closet xian. This proves it.

I think so too. I don't know many atheists who blurt out "Jesus Christ!", "God damn it!!", "Good Lord!!"

What's that about?

Oh wait, I know!!! Because he/she was brought up in a predominately Christian enviroment, so thats ok to use the Lord's name in vain?

semiopen · 09-23-2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

I always knew spamandham was a closet xian. This proves it.

I think so too. I don't know many atheists who blurt out "Jesus Christ!", "God damn it!!", "Good Lord!!"

What's that about?

Oh wait, I know!!! Because he/she was brought up in a predominately Christian enviroment, so thats ok to use the Lord's name in vain?

I think that's YHWH's name in vain, and most people (including me, and apparently you) don't really understand what that means.

Many religious people will write G-d for God. I once asked such a person if by the same logic shoud we write d-g for dog. The reply was no, but I was surprised at the speed that the answer came.

storytime · 09-23-2009, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

I always knew spamandham was a closet xian. This proves it.

I think so too. I don't know many atheists who blurt out "Jesus Christ!", "God damn it!!", "Good Lord!!"

What's that about?

Oh wait, I know!!! Because he/she was brought up in a predominately Christian enviroment, so thats ok to use the Lord's name in vain?

Taking the Lord's name in vain means, agreeing to his covenant requirements and then abandoning them. Those who do so will not be held guiltless.

Christians are guilty of covenant encroachment, declaring that God lied, taking his name in vain, having no legitimate right to it. Their punishment for this is death. Which means, eventually, Christianity will dissolve itself and melt away into soemthing completely different than it presents itself today. Or, if taken literally, all the real covenant people[the Jews] will kill every Christian on earth and be done with it, as their God commanded.

semiopen · 09-23-2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I think so too. I don't know many atheists who blurt out "Jesus Christ!", "God damn it!!", "Good Lord!!"

What's that about?

Oh wait, I know!!! Because he/she was brought up in a predominately Christian enviroment, so thats ok to use the Lord's name in vain?

Taking the Lord's name in vain means, agreeing to his covenant requirements and then abandoning them. Those who do so will not be held guiltless.

Christians are guilty of covenant encroachment, declaring that God lied, taking his name in vain, having no legitimate right to it. Their punishment for this is death. Which means, eventually, Christianity will dissolve itself and melt away into soemthing completely different than it presents itself today. Or, if taken literally, all the real covenant people[the Jews] will kill every Christian on earth and be done with it, as their God commanded.

This seems a little harsh, but not clearly wrong.

It seems that the ten commandments refer to capital crimes. I was surprised to read recently that the 8th commandment "You shall not steal" actually refers to kidnapping a Jew, which is punishable by death. Kidnapping a gentile is not as serious.

Normal stealing is prohibitted from Leviticus 19:11.

Quote:

Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.

Ten_Commandments

Quote:

Sources within Judaism assert that this is a reference to kidnapping, whereas Leviticus 19:11 is the Biblical reference banning the stealing of property. This understanding is based on the Talmudical hermeneutic known as דבר הלמד מעניינו/davar ha-lamed me-inyano, (lit. Something proved by the context), by which this must refer to a capital offense just as the previous two commandments refer to capital offenses.[6]

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09-22-2009, 03:26 PM	#141
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Here's a map of the land that was promised to Abraham As you can see, the current state of Israel is in no way equal to the land (from the Nile to the Euphrates) promised to the Jews by their god.

09-22-2009, 03:47 PM	#143
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Sounds like Assyria-envy.

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