Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 02-07-2006, 07:55 AM

The gospels are replete with alleged supernatural events. A few examples.

The Virgin Birth.
Water turned into wine.
Demons possess people and cast out.
A herd of devil possessed swine drown themselves.
Miraculous cures aplenty are performed, including a chopped off ear being immediately reattached.
Miraculous meals for multitudes are conjured from the most meager begginings.
Jesus stills the storm.
Jesus walks on water.
Dead people are raised (Jesus, Lazarus, Jarius' daughter, the dead Saints of Jerusalem)
Angels appear making divers announcemnets.
Jesus appears and disappears in a supernatural manner.

The very same types of miracles occur in Acts:

Jesus wafts into the sky
Other Miraculous transportation
Dead people raised (Acts 9:36-41; 20:7-12).
Healings (Acts 3:1-10; 9:8-19, 32-35; 14:8-10, 28:8).
Demons cast out (16:16-18)
Immunity to poisonous snakes. (28:3-5)

In the Pauiline epistles, most of the supernatural events are deemed to be spiritual. The charasmatic gifts are common place in modern Pentacostal churches. I don't think any miracles are alleged other than the resurrection, and even that can argued to be a spiritual event (i.e. no reanimated dead body).

Taken at face value, it seems that the Gospel stories occur in a fictional world in which supernatural events are common place, even expected. Acts appears to inhabit the same magical world even though it supposedly speaks of the same time period covered by the epistles.

On the other hand, the Pauline epistles seem to be placed in a world much more like our own. Supernatural events are pretty much confined to the spirit world. Not a single miracle or healing is attributed to Jesus, or anybody else for that matter.

Any comments as to why this should be so?

Jake Jones IV

jjramsey · 02-07-2006, 09:03 AM

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Warmed over arguments from silence that are made even more dubious by exaggerating Paul's silence, which is not as total as has been claimed. From 1 Cor. 12:7-10,

Quote:

To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

From 2 Cor. 12:12,

Quote:

The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, signs and wonders and mighty works.

From Romans 15:18-19,

Quote:

For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and as far around as Illyricum I have fully proclaimed the good news of Christ.

The references to miracles in the epistles certainly more sparse, but they are there, and it is unlikely that the gift of healing to which Paul referred in 1 Corinthians is "confined to the spirit world." That we don't get a lot of miracle stories is unsurprising, since these are epistles, not narratives.

Do you have any new objections, Jake Jones IV, or are you just going to recycle the old and tired ones?

jakejonesiv · 02-07-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Warmed over arguments from silence that are made even more dubious by exaggerating Paul's silence, which is not as total as has been claimed. From 1 Cor. 12:7-10,

From 2 Cor. 12:12,

From Romans 15:18-19,

The references to miracles in the epistles certainly more sparse, but they are there, and it is unlikely that the gift of healing to which Paul referred in 1 Corinthians is "confined to the spirit world." That we don't get a lot of miracle stories is unsurprising, since these are epistles, not narratives.

Do you have any new objections, Jake Jones IV, or are you just going to recycle the old and tired ones?

HI jj,

Right now I am gathering information.

Let me make clear where I am coming from. I have no desire to discuss whether supernatural events actually occur or not. If that is someone's belief, they are welcome to it but don't waste my time. It is my position that the moment someone invokes the divine as an explanation, they have lost the arguement.

This is my working thesis. The gospels & Acts occur in a literary world of fiction and fantasy, sort of like a fairy tale where supernatural events are considered routine.

However, the world of the Pauline epistles, at least on the surface, appear to be more in tune with the real world where supernatural events do not occur. This may indicate that they have a slight advantage in trustworthiness, since one is not required to believe as many impossible things.

What you have argued, jj, is that the Pauline epistles inhabit the same fantasy land as the gospels. A logical deduction would be that they are just as untrustworthy.

That is helpful.

BTW the signs and wonders of 2 Cor. 12:12. Could that have been speaking in tongues? 1 Corinthians 14:18. That wouldn't require a supernatural act, even though it might have been deemed so.

Stay tuned.

Jake Jones IV

jjramsey · 02-07-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

This is my working thesis. The gospels & Acts occur in a literary world of fiction and fantasy, sort of like a fairy tale where supernatural events are considered routine.

And I'd say the evidence suggests a mix of fact and fiction. I don't see you treading new ground here.

No Robots · 02-07-2006, 02:57 PM

The Gospels are the work of am haaretz, common people who, then as now, are credulous and superstitious. Paul, on the other hand, was a trained Pharisee; and, while certainly not immune to superstition, his thinking stands high above that of most of his contemporaries.

TedM · 02-07-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

HI jj,

Right now I am gathering information.

Here's some info from my site (here) (hey--how do you do that hyperlink stuff?):

Quote:

Paul didn't deny the miraculous power of God in his own mission:

Rom 15:19 "19in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
2 Cor 12:12 "12The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles."

One might expect Paul to have elaborated on these "signs and wonders and miracles". The very fact that he didn't perhaps should be seen not as "inconceivable" but as an indication that the context doesn't require such an elaboration.

Had Jesus lived or even just believed to have lived and been a perfect man--God's Son on earth--, given the signs of an apostle Paul attests to, it is reasonable to expect that Paul and others would have thought Jesus to have been a healer also. However, as the context may not have been such that Paul saw a reason to tout miracles he (Paul) had done, so too may be the case with Jesus.

A number of factors including Jesus' own attitude toward his healing ministry, as well as readers perceptions of it may have been an influence: One could argue that the ministry of healing existed but wasn't as widely known as is portrayed in the gospels. A clue to this might be the fact that in Mark, considered by many to be earliest, many of the alleged miracles were not recognized as miracles at the time they were performed by the eyewitnesses themselves (the feeding of the 5,000, for example), and many were not widely witnessed because Jesus took the recipient aside and away from the crowd to perform the miracle. In addition, Jesus is said to have strictly warned them to not tell people about them, seeming to prefer to teach. After his first night of healings Jesus withdrew: Mark 1:35 "In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there. 36Simon and his companions searched for Him;
37they found Him, and said to Him, "Everyone is looking for You." 38He said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for."

Or, perhaps there was some doubt in the air, even among believers, with regard to Jesus' healing ability, knowing of a tradition that Jesus sometimes couldn't heal (Mark 6:5-6) "5And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching."

Paul says in 1 Cor 1:22 that "Jews ask for signs". In Matt 12:38-39 "38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign;" Paul may have been aware of this response and decided to downplay this kind of requirement of proof over faith.

Or, perhaps Paul saw his own struggles with an unnamed thorn, which the Galations, the Corinthians and probably others were aware of, as a potential seed for doubt. This may have dampened any desire to tout Jesus' ministry of healing.

In addition, there is little occasion for mention of Jesus' ministry of healing in the early writings. There is this brief mention of the sick in James, but I don't see any such mentions in the Didache, Hebrews, 1 Peter, or 1 John. Paul's mentions consist of the following: 1. In 1 Cor 11:30 he mentions the sickness among the current Corinthians as being due to their not honoring the Lord's supper properly in 1 Cor 11:30 2. 2. In 2 Cor 12:7-9 and Gal 4:13-14 Paul mentions a "thorn" given to him, and his own illness, and an illness of a fellow worker in Phil 2:26-27, for which he said "God had mercy". In all, there were few contexts in which mention of a ministry of Jesus' healings should be expected.

ted

NOGO · 02-07-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

The Gospels are the work of am haaretz, common people who, then as now, are credulous and superstitious. Paul, on the other hand, was a trained Pharisee; and, while certainly not immune to superstition, his thinking stands high above that of most of his contemporaries.

Paul believed all he read in the scriptures. He believed in the resurrection of Jesus but also his own. Paul believed he could foretell the future by reading scripture. He believed that he saw Jesus after he died. Paul met someone in the third heaven not knowing if he was in the flesh or not. Paul believed that he had/spoke the mind of God. Paul believed that he knew God's plan for humanity and devoted all his life to it. Because of this Paul expected the end of the world within his lifetime and Jesus would return in the clouds.

Talk about credulous ... Paul lost contact with reality.

NOGO · 02-07-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

And I'd say the evidence suggests a mix of fact and fiction. I don't see you treading new ground here.

Tell me what do you think is fact?

Vorkosigan · 02-07-2006, 08:45 PM

ted, you can just type the link:

http://www.mysite.com

or you can type

{url=http://www.mysite.com}PUT TEXT HERE{/url}

Replace the { } with [ ] and it should work.

BTW, in the future, if you are wondering how to do something, just hit the quote button and you be able to see how the passage is constructed.

Michael

Vorkosigan · 02-07-2006, 08:50 PM

You've articulated a key difference between the Paulines, where humans are the targets of supernatural power, and the Gospels, where they are the enactors of it. I think this is the result of the writers of the Gospels incorporating the practices of Hellenistic fiction, which are filled with all sorts of miraculous events -- answered prayers, dreams sent by the gods, miracles:

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/classi.../xenophon.html
"Meanwhile Habrocomes is ordered crucified, but, while on the cross, he prays to the Nile and to the Sun. The wind rises and casts his cross into the Nile, and he is fished out. Habrocomes is then sentenced to be burned at the stake, but the Nile's flood puts out the flames."

Magical music from magical caves:

http://chss2.montclair.edu/classics/.../Leucippe.html
"The next day Leukippe appears for the virginity test wearing a religious robe. Thersandros is likewise sure that he will win. Leukippe enters the cave and the doors are shut. Kleitophon comically worries about the lustful Pan violating her. Soon they hear sweet music coming from the cave and the doors open and Leukippe comes out."

etc.,
The Gospels have borrowed the thought-world and conventions of Hellenistic fiction.....

Vorkosigan

02-07-2006, 07:55 AM	#1
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	The Pauline World vs. the Gospel World The gospels are replete with alleged supernatural events. A few examples. The Virgin Birth. Water turned into wine. Demons possess people and cast out. A herd of devil possessed swine drown themselves. Miraculous cures aplenty are performed, including a chopped off ear being immediately reattached. Miraculous meals for multitudes are conjured from the most meager begginings. Jesus stills the storm. Jesus walks on water. Dead people are raised (Jesus, Lazarus, Jarius' daughter, the dead Saints of Jerusalem) Angels appear making divers announcemnets. Jesus appears and disappears in a supernatural manner. The very same types of miracles occur in Acts: Jesus wafts into the sky Other Miraculous transportation Dead people raised (Acts 9:36-41; 20:7-12). Healings (Acts 3:1-10; 9:8-19, 32-35; 14:8-10, 28:8). Demons cast out (16:16-18) Immunity to poisonous snakes. (28:3-5) In the Pauiline epistles, most of the supernatural events are deemed to be spiritual. The charasmatic gifts are common place in modern Pentacostal churches. I don't think any miracles are alleged other than the resurrection, and even that can argued to be a spiritual event (i.e. no reanimated dead body). Taken at face value, it seems that the Gospel stories occur in a fictional world in which supernatural events are common place, even expected. Acts appears to inhabit the same magical world even though it supposedly speaks of the same time period covered by the epistles. On the other hand, the Pauline epistles seem to be placed in a world much more like our own. Supernatural events are pretty much confined to the spirit world. Not a single miracle or healing is attributed to Jesus, or anybody else for that matter. Any comments as to why this should be so? Jake Jones IV

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02-07-2006, 02:57 PM	#5
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	The Gospels are the work of am haaretz, common people who, then as now, are credulous and superstitious. Paul, on the other hand, was a trained Pharisee; and, while certainly not immune to superstition, his thinking stands high above that of most of his contemporaries.

02-07-2006, 08:45 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	ted, you can just type the link: http://www.mysite.com or you can type {url=http://www.mysite.com}PUT TEXT HERE{/url} Replace the { } with [ ] and it should work. BTW, in the future, if you are wondering how to do something, just hit the quote button and you be able to see how the passage is constructed. Michael

02-07-2006, 08:50 PM	#10
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	You've articulated a key difference between the Paulines, where humans are the targets of supernatural power, and the Gospels, where they are the enactors of it. I think this is the result of the writers of the Gospels incorporating the practices of Hellenistic fiction, which are filled with all sorts of miraculous events -- answered prayers, dreams sent by the gods, miracles: http://www.chss.montclair.edu/classi.../xenophon.html "Meanwhile Habrocomes is ordered crucified, but, while on the cross, he prays to the Nile and to the Sun. The wind rises and casts his cross into the Nile, and he is fished out. Habrocomes is then sentenced to be burned at the stake, but the Nile's flood puts out the flames." Magical music from magical caves: http://chss2.montclair.edu/classics/.../Leucippe.html "The next day Leukippe appears for the virginity test wearing a religious robe. Thersandros is likewise sure that he will win. Leukippe enters the cave and the doors are shut. Kleitophon comically worries about the lustful Pan violating her. Soon they hear sweet music coming from the cave and the doors open and Leukippe comes out." etc., The Gospels have borrowed the thought-world and conventions of Hellenistic fiction..... Vorkosigan

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