Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 08-04-2010, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Apparently, they were partying. Perhaps celebrating their freedom from slavery under the Egyptians.

But is this a story about them making a golden calf and then worshipping it with dancing and singing, as children around the world are being taught - or is the author actually telling us that the one million Israelites were having frenzied sex with each other? Is there a justification for translating it as "orgy"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Whatever suits your imagination, I guess, considering it's all fiction anyway.

Yes, well that is a very easy way to do biblical criticism, then... And I'd have to go with cricket.

Sounds more like the Israelites were celebrating freedom from Yahweh and decided that worshipping any old Bull-shit would do.

semiopen · 08-04-2010, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Technically it was not a calf. It was a bull. The bull was one of the representations (an eye being the other) of the Hebrew god of war and thunder, namely Yahweh. What we have left is 800 years after the supposed events the returning princes and high priests garbled the stories.

The word used for this is egel which means calf. The Exodus event was probably written after the two calves in 2 Kings, eg.

Quote:

10:29
However from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, with which he made Israel to sin, Jehu didn't depart from after them, [to wit], the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc

Interesting. But what about the "feast"? Was it an all-male orgy, then?? Do you know what Rashi said about that?

Ki_Tisa is the parsha where the incident happens.

Exodus 32 2:6

Quote:

Aaron said to them, "Take off the golden rings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them to me." 3 All the people took off the golden rings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 He received what they handed him, and fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it a molten calf; and they said, "These are your gods, Israel, which brought you up out of the land of Egypt." 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation, and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to Yahweh." 6 They rose up early on the next day, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Note the gold was from the ears of the women so their chastity devices remained intact.

The last word "to play" is what is being interpreted as orgy. The word is letzachaik. Rashi claims this implies licentious behavior, but "to play" is a decent rendering. It is inconceivable that Israelite women would have been involved in an orgy. This interpretation is Christian, perhaps female elements of the mixed multitude were involved, perhaps it was homosexual, perhaps it wasn't an orgy.

Cesc · 08-05-2010, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Sounds more like the Israelites were celebrating freedom from Yahweh and decided that worshipping any old Bull-shit would do.

Yeah, there really isn't much fun about Yahweh!

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Note the gold was from the ears of the women so their chastity devices remained intact.

The last word "to play" is what is being interpreted as orgy. The word is letzachaik. Rashi claims this implies licentious behavior, but "to play" is a decent rendering. It is inconceivable that Israelite women would have been involved in an orgy. This interpretation is Christian, perhaps female elements of the mixed multitude were involved, perhaps it was homosexual, perhaps it wasn't an orgy.

Whether or not there were women involved (did chastity devices actually exist back then?) it looks like it very difficult to decide what "לצחק" means in this verse.

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