Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Baphomet

Description A creature with two heads- one male and one female, on a female body.

Said to be used as a symbol by the Templars, and was used in Heraldry, mostly in continental Europe, and not Britain.

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/

Why is it that something explicitly stated to be fully god and fully man is not studied in comparison to the many similar beasties humans have invented over millenia? If a different rule of procedure is being used, surely the obvious comparison should be ruled out as faulty to start with before using a set of assumptions that are really the same as stating the sphinx is based on a real human.

WishboneDawn · 07-14-2006, 10:52 AM

Greek gods, gilgamesh and the like are better comparisons.

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2006, 11:03 AM

I did not want to make a direct comparison to a specific mythical beastie, only to ask what "set" does Jesus belong to?

If you look at Revelation, I behold the throne, and the lamb of god, and the angels, seraphim, etc we are obviously looking at a mythical beastie menagerie with Jesus as the top beastie.

We are told this beastie's dad is the holy spirit, has lived with god and is able to resurrect.

Why is Jesus not seen as part of a category of mythical beasties, as a very top angel who is equal to god?

WishboneDawn · 07-14-2006, 11:39 AM

I assume because beasties have tails, wings and/or fur.

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2006, 11:46 AM

But this is a stripped down version!

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Angels are messengers from heaven- generally depicted as winged human figures.

Features They appear frequently in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic literature, carrying instructions or revelations from God. Sometimes they carry out his will, or judge the deeds of men.

(from above)

The Jesus beastie is a flightless model, but can walk on water and resurrect, and does bring a message - not an original one though! The Jesus god/angel will judge our deeds at the last judgement!

Darwin and the Barnacle describes the huge variance in barnacles that occurs, including a male that is basically a sperm producing sac living symbiotically on the female. There is no reason human imagination should not create equal and greater variances in mythical beasties, but still leave the beastie recognisable!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...756719?ie=UTF8

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We find out about barnacles that secrete their own shells, barnacles that burrow into other creatures' shells, barnacles that attach themselves to flesh, etc

Mageth · 07-14-2006, 11:56 AM

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Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I assume because beasties have tails, wings and/or fur.

"Under His Wings":

http://www.lordwarmingtonstudio.com/...r_his_wing.htm

Various symbolic Christian images with wings:

http://www.stursulaparish.org/glasst...oirWindow.html

(also illustrates the link between Christian symbolism (man/bull/eagle/lion; the four "noblest" creatures and the cornerstones of the Zodiac of astrology) and more ancient (e.g., Assyrian) symbolism.)

WishboneDawn · 07-14-2006, 12:55 PM

I don't think metaphor and symbolism count. I think the beasty has to have been distinguisable from people around it by attributes borrowed from other species.

Though if Jesus IS now morphing into a winged creature in christian culture, well heck, maybe so.

I still think Jesus belongs in bigger and better company. I'm not arguing the mythical part, just who he shares that space with.

Mageth · 07-14-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I don't think metaphor and symbolism count. I think the beasty has to have been distinguisable from people around it by attributes borrowed from other species.

And the Bible describes a lot of chimeric creatures. Read Ezekiel, for example:

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus [were] their faces: and their wings [were] stretched upward; two [wings] of every one [were] joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

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Though if Jesus IS now morphing into a winged creature in christian culture, well heck, maybe so.

God symbolically had wings long before Jesus:

Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Similar symbolism can be found throughout the scriptures. And Jesus was symbolically given wings long before today's Christian culture.

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I still think Jesus belongs in bigger and better company. I'm not arguing the mythical part, just who he shares that space with.

He's essentially a man/god chimera. A chimera nonetheless.

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2006, 01:37 PM

http://www3.unifi.it/surfchem/solid/bardi/chimera/

? Angel surely?

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The Chimaera - or Chimera - was said to be made out of three different creatures: lion, goat and serpent. A savage beast, sprouting fire from its mouth, it devastated the land until it was killed by the hero Bellerophon who flew over it riding his winged horse Pegasus. Although simple in its basic lines, this story is among the most ancient ones of Occidental mythology and it hides some deep and still not completely known meaning. This site is an attempt to collect data and material about the Chimaera seen in its various aspects: myth, legend, art expression, and as a probe of the human mind.

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I don't think metaphor and symbolism count. I think the beasty has to have been distinguisable from people around it by attributes borrowed from other species.

Though if Jesus IS now morphing into a winged creature in christian culture, well heck, maybe so.

I still think Jesus belongs in bigger and better company. I'm not arguing the mythical part, just who he shares that space with.

Surely it is not a matter of now morphing - that requires an explanation of why now and not then?

Why not always a mythological creature? I would go for angel, what do others think?

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07-14-2006, 10:52 AM	#2
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	Greek gods, gilgamesh and the like are better comparisons.

07-14-2006, 11:03 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I did not want to make a direct comparison to a specific mythical beastie, only to ask what "set" does Jesus belong to? If you look at Revelation, I behold the throne, and the lamb of god, and the angels, seraphim, etc we are obviously looking at a mythical beastie menagerie with Jesus as the top beastie. We are told this beastie's dad is the holy spirit, has lived with god and is able to resurrect. Why is Jesus not seen as part of a category of mythical beasties, as a very top angel who is equal to god?

07-14-2006, 11:39 AM	#4
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	I assume because beasties have tails, wings and/or fur.

07-14-2006, 12:55 PM	#7
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	I don't think metaphor and symbolism count. I think the beasty has to have been distinguisable from people around it by attributes borrowed from other species. Though if Jesus IS now morphing into a winged creature in christian culture, well heck, maybe so. I still think Jesus belongs in bigger and better company. I'm not arguing the mythical part, just who he shares that space with.

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