Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 07:50 AM

So I suppose you also have historical evidence that Nebby didn't destroy Tyre? Or was this also non-event?:huh: Evidently Ezekiel didn't record history very accurately even though it was all written after the fact.

spin · 01-30-2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And for a more scholarly source the following which indicates that Tyre is located beneath the rubble at this very moment.

Quote:

Nick Marriner and Christophe Morhange,
CEREGE-CNRS UMR 6635, University of Aix-Marseille, 29, avenue R. Schuman, F-13621 Aix-en-Provence, France
Received 31 December 2004; accepted 3 February 2005. Available online 8 June 2005.

Abstract

The exact location and chronology of the ancient harbours of Phoenicia's two most important city-states, Tyre and Sidon, is a longstanding debate. New geoarchaeological research reveals that the early ports actually lie beneath the modern urban centres. During the Bronze Age, Tyre and Sidon were characterised by semi-open marine coves. After the first millennium BC, our bio-sedimentological data attest to early artificial harbour infrastructure, before the later apogees of the Roman and Byzantine periods. Post-1000 AD, silting-up and coastal progradation led to burial of the ancient basins, lost until now, beneath the city centres. The outstanding preservation properties of such fine-grained sedimentary contexts, coupled with the presence of the water table, means these two Levantine harbours are exceptionally preserved. This work has far-reaching implications for our understanding of Phoenician maritime archaeology and calls for the protection of these unique cultural heritages.

And how exactly is this relevant? The urban centers referred to are those built on the sediment that formed around the mole of Alexander.

spin

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

See post #349

Well done. You didn't think, though, that Strabo writing in the 1st c. BCE and interested in geographical description, ie not a historical source for any period other than his own, isn't really any help to you at all?...

... No, I didn't think so. As you haven't read Strabo, here's what he writes:
[INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]23 But Tyre is wholly an island, being built up nearly in the same way as Aradus; and it is connected with the mainland by a mole, which was constructed by Alexander when he was besieging it;
Does this help your lost cause in any respect?

spin

Yes it does. It show that the old city was thrown into the sea, since Tyre is only an Island. What was the mole constructed of? The old city of Tyre. Is there any mention of Alexander destroying a city to gain materials? No. Because Nebby reduced it to rubble.

spin · 01-30-2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So I suppose you also have historical evidence that Nebby didn't destroy Tyre? Or was this also non-event?:huh:

Burden of proof lies on the one asserting the substantive case, ie you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Evidently Ezekiel didn't record history very accurately even though it was all written after the fact.

What makes you think that something written after the fact has to be accurate?

(And have you abandoned the research on Dan 11?)

spin

Jack the Bodiless · 01-30-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

But the truth is Tyre was situated on the island and the mainland. Various historians says that the island was the center of administration, and worship, but the majority of the people lived in the mainland city. The book of Joshua calls it the fortified city of Tyre and it was on the mainland next to Ramah.

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Whatever the name of it Ezekiel does not seperate it from Tyre.

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Indeed the destruction of the mainland city was the beginning of the end of Tyre's renown wealth and prestige.

Another falsehood for your collection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The only thing remaining of Tyre is a fishing site and an unhealthy hostility towards Israel.

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This is what the prophecy shows.

1. Nebby and the nations diminish Tyre which they did by destroying the mainland city.

Nebby failed to do what he was prophesied to do: to take Tyre (specifically including the island).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

2. After this diminish Tyre becomes a place for fishing (this true as I write)

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

3. Final destruction, Tyre buried in the sea...deep beneath the sea. (some people believe that Alex building the causeway was the fulfillment of the burying in the sea judgement. But in ch.27 God makes it clear that when Tyre is "broken by the seas" everything, and every person left in it will fall into the sea with it as well. This did not occur when Alex built the causeway for there were only three things showed to be LAYED in the WATER by Alex, wood, stones and Dirt. This part is yet future.)

Alex didn't cast TYRE into the sea, and both Tyre and Ushu made a COMPLETE RECOVERY from Alexander.

They were REBUILT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The prophecy of Ezekiel is so accurate that sometimes the hairs on my neck stand, when I read it.... this is proof that God exist.....there is just no way around it....no matter how you try.

It failed completely and utterly, in many different ways. There is absolutely no way around that.

I guess that's why you have now actually given up trying?

No more garbage about the mainland battle lasting 13 years?

No more attempts to pretend that "ALL Tyre's streets" actually means "all the streets EXCEPT those of Tyre itself?

No more attempts to address the fact that both Tyre and Ushu were COMPLETELY REBUILT, by the Tyrians, in defiance of the "prophecy"?

Then I accept your surrender, sugarhitman.

spin · 01-30-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Well done. You didn't think, though, that Strabo writing in the 1st c. BCE and interested in geographical description, ie not a historical source for any period other than his own, isn't really any help to you at all?...

... No, I didn't think so. As you haven't read Strabo, here's what he writes:
[INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]23 But Tyre is wholly an island, being built up nearly in the same way as Aradus; and it is connected with the mainland by a mole, which was constructed by Alexander when he was besieging it;
Does this help your lost cause in any respect?

Yes it does. It show that the old city was thrown into the sea, since Tyre is only an Island. What was the mole constructed of? The old city of Tyre.

You're not thinking arnoldo. If the mole was used to reach Tyre then it could have been made out of the ruins of Tyre. Mi capisce?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Is there any mention of Alexander destroying a city to gain materials? No. Because Nebby reduced it to rubble.

What subject are you knowledgeable about?

spin

Jack the Bodiless · 01-30-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes it does. It show that the old city was thrown into the sea, since Tyre is only an Island. What was the mole constructed of? The old city of Tyre.

Incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Is there any mention of Alexander destroying a city to gain materials? No. Because Nebby reduced it to rubble.

Again, incorrect.

Your own source has pointed out that the mainland settlement was basically "a line of suburbs".

Nebby conquered it immediately (IIRC, there is no record of him "reducing it to rubble": and why would he do that?). But it was still there when Alex DID reduce it to rubble to make his causeway.

Later, as with all Alex's damage, it was rebuilt.

sugarhitman · 01-30-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

But the truth is Tyre was situated on the island and the mainland. Various historians says that the island was the center of administration, and worship, but the majority of the people lived in the mainland city. The book of Joshua calls it the fortified city of Tyre and it was on the mainland next to Ramah.

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Another falsehood for your collection?

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Nebby failed to do what he was prophesied to do: to take Tyre (specifically including the island).

How many times do you intend to repeat this fabrication of yours?

Alex didn't cast TYRE into the sea, and both Tyre and Ushu made a COMPLETE RECOVERY from Alexander.

They were REBUILT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The prophecy of Ezekiel is so accurate that sometimes the hairs on my neck stand, when I read it.... this is proof that God exist.....there is just no way around it....no matter how you try.

It failed completely and utterly, in many different ways. There is absolutely no way around that.

I guess that's why you have now actually given up trying?

No more garbage about the mainland battle lasting 13 years?

No more attempts to pretend that "ALL Tyre's streets" actually means "all the streets EXCEPT those of Tyre itself?

No more attempts to address the fact that both Tyre and Ushu were COMPLETELY REBUILT, by the Tyrians, in defiance of the "prophecy"?

Then I accept your surrender, sugarhitman.

No, what you have accepted my friend....is your own self-delusion.

spin · 01-30-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Nebby conquered it immediately (IIRC, there is no record of him "reducing it to rubble": and why would he do that?). But it was still there when Alex DID reduce it to rubble to make his causeway.

I'm trying to locate the source of the claim that Alexander reduced it to rubble. I've just read through Arrian's description of the siege (see the third item here), but couldn't find where the stone came from. So, any idea what the literary source is?

spin

spin · 01-30-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Then I accept your surrender, sugarhitman.

No, what you have accepted my friend....is your own self-delusion.

I'm impressed with the logic and evidence of your argument.

spin

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01-30-2008, 07:50 AM	#581
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	So I suppose you also have historical evidence that Nebby didn't destroy Tyre? Or was this also non-event?:huh: Evidently Ezekiel didn't record history very accurately even though it was all written after the fact.

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