Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 01-20-2008, 12:18 PM

I did not plan on writing on this again, but the critics are still bringing this up, so let us go back to this accurate prediction of Ezekiel. Now the critics says that Ezekiel has Nebby attacking Island Tyre. But there is something funny about this because all the weapons used by Nebby are land based, and there were no causeway connecting the island with the mainland. So how did Nebby "siege island Tyre?" History it seems is silent about this. They say he sieged it but does not tell us how. Critics have made up their own history on how Nebby acomplished this, but were they there to witness this event? certainly not. Ask them why would Tyre surrender to Nebby or pay tribute to him, they say things like because Nebby would have used a economic embargo on them and other such rubbish. If that was true then why did they resist Greece, who had this same power and who actually had ships? Well lets take a CLOSE look what Zek says:

"Behold , I am against you O Tyrus, and will cause MANY NATIONS to come up against you, as the sea cause his waves to come up...." Here God says MANY NATIONS will come against Tyre like the waves of the seas. Waves ofcourse comes at different times.

"Behold I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings..." Now here critics claims that the army under Nebby are the many nations predicted that would come against Tyrus. But look at the text Nebby's army is considered one army. A multi-national force is a coalition of soveriegn nations that are not under a single command (like the forces in Iraq) But this army is considered the army of Babylon under one command. Look at what Zek says:

"a king of kings, from the NORTH, with horses and with chariots, and with horsemen and COMPANIES and MUCH PEOPLE....

With HIS AXES (his not theirs)
HIS HORSES (not theirs)
WHEN HE ENTER YOUR GATES (NOT THEY)
HE SHALL BREAK DOWN YOUR WALLS (NOT THEY)
HE SHALL SET ENGINES OF WAR AGAINST YOUR WALLS (NOT THEY)

Notice that not only are these so-called multi-national forces are referred to as a single army it is an army targeting a mainland city and not an island because how can engines of war be set against walls that has no land outside of them? How can a physical siege be employed against a island fortress without ships...especially ships that did not have battering rams? How can wheels and chariots, be used when there was no causeway nor land outside the walls of Tyre? Did Nebby have some kind of special technology? No. Come on people this is basic common sense, which I'm sure Ezekiel had and would not have foretold Nebby attacking an island with these weapons that are completely useless against the kind of fortress like Island Tyre. Ezekiel was after all alive during this time. He clearly fortells Neby attacking the mainland city.

Critics says that the daughters in the field is the mainland city and suburbs. In the bible the daughter city is the city that comes after the mother city. History has it that Old Tyre was the mainland city and that island Tyre was settled from the mainland, so who is the daughter and who is the mother? Mainland Tyre is the Mother city. It was the mother city and the villeges in the field that Nebby destroyed.

THEY are the "many nations" that is separate from Nebby. Because we know from history that Nebby did not plunder Tyre nor build any causeway. Here Ezekiel predicts that THEY:

"....shall make a spoil of your riches, and make prey of your merchandise
.....and They shall LAY (lay means to build not throw, this shows that something was to be built in the water!!) your stones and your timber and your dust (even the dirt!) in the midst of the water."

Alexander did these very things as foretold!! He built the causeway using rubble that he made by destroying what was left of Mainland Tyre.

God says that he would make this place like the top of a rock and that it would not be built again. Critics says the city of Tyre is still there. Not in the place where it use to be. Look! they say pointing to either a city on the island the causeway or a city on the mainland a pretty good distance away from the coast. But if you look right behind the buildings on the causeway, right behind the old coastline where Alex aquired rubble from the old city you will see a large bare spot which seems that construction has went out of its way to advoid. It encloses the Roman hippodrome which is more than large enough to house within it a large city. It is completely bare, and no building can ever take place there again because it is a UNESCO protected site. "thou shall be built no more" certainly has come true.

Now something interesting happens in verse 19 and 20. In the preceding verses God says that the city shall be like the top of a rock a place for fishing and will not be built. That was caused by human armies. But in these verses God says it will become desolate and uninhabited when He bring the deep over it bringing it down into the pit the low parts of the earth. Now how can he do this if there is no city there? Critics like to say that the text says that Nebby was to completely destroy both the mainland and the island cities. If that was true then why does God says it will only be desolate when He bring the deep over it? And how can one place be a place to spread nets on and like the top of a rock when it is buried under the sea? This proves that Tyre inhabits a different or two locations. The city that is to be desolated and uninhabited when it is buried under the sea deep in the "low parts of the earth" is the current city on the island. One location cannot both be a place to spread nets on and like the top of a bare rock and be desolate and uninhabited. Because if fishers are there that means people are there which means it cannot be desolate and uninhabited. Thus we have two judgements for two locations.

This also proves that island Tyre was not to be destroyed by Nebby. Isaiah has Tyre reestablishing itself as a commercial power after the Babylonian 70 year rule, Jeremiah has Tyre listed as one of the nations that would serve Babylon for seventy years. Nebby was not to destroy Tyre completely. Because if he was then there would be no need for God to destroy a city that isn't there. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 01:08 PM

It is absurd for anyone to believe that a God exists who wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If he did, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

There is no way that God intended for prophecy to strengthen the faith of Old Testament Jews. If he did, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled. They certainly believed that it would be fulfilled during their lifetimes. First of all, they believed that God was angry with the Tyrians, and wanted to destroy Tyre. They certainly would not have believed that it would take centuries for God to punish the Tyrians. In addition, they certainly would not have expected God to punish the Tyrians' great great great great grandchildren for the ancestors' sins. Further, it was wrong for God to punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

There is little doubt that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar's plans to invade Tyre in advance. Nebuchadnezzar had a penchant for conquest, and his kingdom was located close to Tyre. Since even the New Testament criticizes Tyre, a reasonable case can be made that Jews and Christians were jealous of the wealth of Tyre, and wanted God to punish Tyre because the Tyrians were able to gain wealth that they were not able to gain. Considering the fact that most of the people in the world at that time who had heard about the God of the Bible opposed him, it is an absurd notion that God would pick on just one kingdom out of all of the kingdoms in the world, take centuries to cause the defeat of the kingdom, inspire Ezekiel to claim that "a kings of kings" would invade Tyre and fail to defeat it, and break his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. If anything, the Tyre prophecy weakened the faith of generations of Jews, strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians, and reduced the size of the current Christian church by failing to mention that Alexander would defeat Tyre.

The Tyre prophecy is one of the very best examples that proves that the Bible is fraudulent.

sugarhitman · 01-20-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is absurd for anyone to believe that a God exists who wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If he did, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

There is no way that God intended for prophecy to strengthen the faith of Old Testament Jews. If he did, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled. They certainly believed that it would be fulfilled during their lifetimes. First of all, they believed that God was angry with the Tyrians, and wanted to destroy Tyre. They certainly would not have believed that it would take centuries for God to punish the Tyrians. In addition, they certainly would not have expected God to punish the Tyrians' great great great great grandchildren for the ancestors' sins. Further, it was wrong for God to punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

There is little doubt that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar's plans to invade Tyre in advance. Nebuchadnezzar had a penchant for conquest, and his kingdom was located close to Tyre. Since even the New Testament criticizes Tyre, a reasonable case can be made that Jews and Christians were jealous of the wealth of Tyre, and wanted God to punish Tyre because the Tyrians were able to gain wealth that they were not able to gain. Considering the fact that most of the people in the world at that time who had heard about the God of the Bible opposed him, it is an absurd notion that God would pick on just one kingdom out of all of the kingdoms in the world, take centuries to cause the defeat of the kingdom, inspire Ezekiel to claim that "a kings of kings" would invade Tyre and fail to defeat it, and break his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. If anything, the Tyre prophecy weakened the faith of generations of Jews, strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians, and reduced the size of the current Christian church by failing to mention that Alexander would defeat Tyre.

The Tyre prophecy is one of the very best examples that proves that the Bible is fraudulent.

And so the faithless preacher returns. If Babylon failed to take Tyre, why did Tyre surrender and then pay tribute. Why did it subjugate itself to Babylon if Babylon "failed?" So Tyre closed itself within its walls for 13 years suscessfully only to surrender to a defeated army? Makes me laugh every time I hear this lame arguement. :wave:

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Here is some information I found on the subject. I find it interesting that a person can argue that Israel never entered the land of Egypt as well as that bible prophecy never was fulfilled in the past without any evidence whatsoever to support their claim.

Quote:

Atheistic argument:
>Ezekiel 26:3-36 explains at length that
>Nebuchadnezzar will lay siege to Tyre and destroy it, that he will take its
>money and goods, that the city will "be built no more" and "be no more."
>Any history book about the period will explain that Nebuchadnezzar's
>thirteen year siege was unsuccessful. The city was later conquered by
>Alexander the Great, but it was rebuilt and is currently inhabited
Answer
Atheist frequently quote this passage as evidence so let’s dispel this myth. This argument uses half-truths to back up the atheists claim of unfulfilled prophecy. I have seen this on several atheist websites and newsgroup postings. The real tragedy with atheism is that they take as truth what is hear only from these sources and never validate these claims to find out if they are true. I have done a little research and here is the historical evidence about the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy:

Indeed Ezekiel did prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar shall lay siege and destroy Tyre. Verse 3 of the passage you cited also says that more nations will also be involved in the destruction of Tyre. Now here is the half-truth that atheist love to quote. Actually it is a series of half-truths. They claim Tyre was not destroyed – it was. They also claim that because Nebuchadnezzar didn’t finish the job, Ezekiel was wrong. Most atheist argue that Ezekiel was wrong because Alexander the Great defeated Tyre when Ezekiel 26:7-9 gives Nebuchadnezzar as the defeating leader. The half-truth is that indeed Nebuchadnezzar did defeat Tyre and fulfill exactly what the Bible says he will do. Alexander fulfilled the Bible's claim that the timber, stones and soil would be thrown into the sea leaving Tyre as a bare rock. The Bible does not call the leader by name who would fulfill this part of the prophecy, but it clearly specifies other nations would be involved.

When Nebuchadnezzar defeated Tyre, the people fled to an island. Alexander came and these same people resisted his conquering empire. To get to the island, Alexander the Great used the remains of the city in which Nebuchadnezzar had laid siege to build a bridge to the island and thus completely destroyed the remaining city of Tyre and completely fulfilled the prophecy of Ezekiel to the letter. Ezekiel 26 verse 12 says, "they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water."

It is very important to notice Nebuchadnezzar was called by name and when he is addressed in verse 7-8 the prophecy is addressed as 'he'...ie, "He will slay...He will direct his battering rams...". In verse 12 the prophecy is addressed as 'they', ie, "they will plunder...they will break...they will lay your stones, timber and soul in the midst of the water". Clearly this prophecy was not addressed to Nebuchadnezzar but rather to those who would follow.

This 'inaccuracy' is not as the atheist claims, but rather this prophecy was fulfilled to the exact letter proving that no one but God could have known before hand these events separated by so many years. If Nebuchadnezzar had fulfilled it all, it would have been said that he saw this prophecy and self-fulfilled it or that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar’s plans and he prophesied accordingly. But when you see that God foretold that Nebuchadnezzar would not be able to complete the job but nations would wipe Tyre clean and when you see Nebuchadnezzar's defeat of the city, Tyre's flight to the island and Alexander's bridge to the island, you can't explain it any other way except that this Bible was inspired by God.

One important principle about biblical prophecy is that you cannot purposefully fulfill it nor can you use it to predict God. Prophecy is written so that we are prepared and so we can have confidence in God and when we see these things fulfilled we know God's word is true and that God is in control. There are over 300 prophecies concerning Christ and many seemed contradictory thus making it impossible to self-fulfill. For example, Jesus' parents lived outside of Bethlehem but they were forced by the Roman Empire to go to Bethlehem to register for a census and to be taxed, Jesus was born there, they fled to Egypt to escape Herod's order to kill male children 2 years and younger, moved back and settled in Nazareth. This action fulfilled seemingly contradictory prophecies that said that Christ would be born in Bethlehem, God would call His son out of Egypt and the Christ would be called a Nazarine. This is just a sampling but proves an important point. God inspires prophecy and interweaves them with events making it completely impossible for anyone to design a self-fulfilling plan in order to fulfill by forgery. Therefore when you see these things fulfilled – such as Ezekiel's prophecy – you know that surely, only God could have known beforehand.
http://www.exchangedlife.com/skeptic/ezekiel.htm

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is absurd for anyone to believe that a God exists who wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If he did, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

There is no way that God intended for prophecy to strengthen the faith of Old Testament Jews. If he did, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled. They certainly believed that it would be fulfilled during their lifetimes. First of all, they believed that God was angry with the Tyrians, and wanted to destroy Tyre. They certainly would not have believed that it would take centuries for God to punish the Tyrians. In addition, they certainly would not have expected God to punish the Tyrians' great great great great grandchildren for the ancestors' sins. Further, it was wrong for God to punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

There is little doubt that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar's plans to invade Tyre in advance. Nebuchadnezzar had a penchant for conquest, and his kingdom was located close to Tyre. Since even the New Testament criticizes Tyre, a reasonable case can be made that Jews and Christians were jealous of the wealth of Tyre, and wanted God to punish Tyre because the Tyrians were able to gain wealth that they were not able to gain. Considering the fact that most of the people in the world at that time who had heard about the God of the Bible opposed him, it is an absurd notion that God would pick on just one kingdom out of all of the kingdoms in the world, take centuries to cause the defeat of the kingdom, inspire Ezekiel to claim that "a kings of kings" would invade Tyre and fail to defeat it, and break his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. If anything, the Tyre prophecy weakened the faith of generations of Jews, strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians, and reduced the size of the current Christian church by failing to mention that Alexander would defeat Tyre.

The Tyre prophecy is one of the very best examples that proves that the Bible is fraudulent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And so the faithless preacher returns. If Babylon failed to take Tyre, why did Tyre surrender and then pay tribute? Why did it subjugate itself to Babylon if Babylon "failed?" So Tyre closed itself within its walls for 13 years suscessfully only to surrender to a defeated army? Makes me laugh every time I hear this lame argument.

Thanks a lot for the comedy. Jay Leno would pay you for material like that. If God really wanted to convince people that he can predict the future, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. Now why hasn't God ever made an indisputable prophecy?

Regarding "If Babylon failed to take Tyre, why did Tyre surrender and then pay tribute?," because Ezekiel or someone else wrote the Tyre prophecy after the events, or because Ezekiel originally wrote the Tyre prophecy, and it was later revised by Ezekiel or by someone else in order to cover up the false claim that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre. The "many nations" part of the prophecy was only added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

Again, thanks for the comedy. You have obviously missed your calling as a comedian.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.
.

I find it comedic that you offer your assumption without any evidence whatsoever.

sugarhitman · 01-20-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is absurd for anyone to believe that a God exists who wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If he did, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

There is no way that God intended for prophecy to strengthen the faith of Old Testament Jews. If he did, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled. They certainly believed that it would be fulfilled during their lifetimes. First of all, they believed that God was angry with the Tyrians, and wanted to destroy Tyre. They certainly would not have believed that it would take centuries for God to punish the Tyrians. In addition, they certainly would not have expected God to punish the Tyrians' great great great great grandchildren for the ancestors' sins. Further, it was wrong for God to punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

There is little doubt that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar's plans to invade Tyre in advance. Nebuchadnezzar had a penchant for conquest, and his kingdom was located close to Tyre. Since even the New Testament criticizes Tyre, a reasonable case can be made that Jews and Christians were jealous of the wealth of Tyre, and wanted God to punish Tyre because the Tyrians were able to gain wealth that they were not able to gain. Considering the fact that most of the people in the world at that time who had heard about the God of the Bible opposed him, it is an absurd notion that God would pick on just one kingdom out of all of the kingdoms in the world, take centuries to cause the defeat of the kingdom, inspire Ezekiel to claim that "a kings of kings" would invade Tyre and fail to defeat it, and break his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. If anything, the Tyre prophecy weakened the faith of generations of Jews, strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians, and reduced the size of the current Christian church by failing to mention that Alexander would defeat Tyre.

The Tyre prophecy is one of the very best examples that proves that the Bible is fraudulent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And so the faithless preacher returns. If Babylon failed to take Tyre, why did Tyre surrender and then pay tribute? Why did it subjugate itself to Babylon if Babylon "failed?" So Tyre closed itself within its walls for 13 years suscessfully only to surrender to a defeated army? Makes me laugh every time I hear this lame argument.

Thanks a lot for the comedy. Jay Leno would pay you for material like that. If God really wanted to convince people that he can predict the future, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. Now why hasn't God ever made an indisputable prophecy?

Regarding "If Babylon failed to take Tyre, why did Tyre surrender and then pay tribute?," because Ezekiel or someone else wrote the Tyre prophecy after the events, or because Ezekiel originally wrote the Tyre prophecy, and it was later revised by Ezekiel or by someone else in order to cover up the false claim that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre. The "many nations" part of the prophecy was only added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre.

There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

Again, thanks for the comedy. You have obviously missed your calling as a comedian.

Ha Ha Ha! What evidence do you have that Zek rewrote his prophecy. I wonder did the Jews re-write prophecies after thier restoration to prove bible accuracy? Did they Johnny? Ha! you no better than to say that. All the ancient prophecies were written after the events and all the current ones are self-fulfilled right? Wrong. Oh by the way Tyre and Israel proves that....God truely exsist. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ha Ha Ha! What evidence do you have that Zek rewrote his prophecy.

Since the Bible is the claimant, not skeptics, all that I need to do is provide reasonable plausibilities.

What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not recorded after the events, or revised after the events?

It is not reasonable to assume that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would go down the streets of Tyre, and break down its towers, and fail to defeat Tyre, but it is reasonable to assume that after it became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar would not defeat Tyre that that was when the "many nations" part of Ezekiel 26 was added.

No rational person would believe that God took centuries to punish Tyre, and that he would punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed.

Generations of Jews died without seeing the island settlement defeated. That certainly did not strengthen the faith of Jews who knew about God's scathing judgments against Tyre and expected a quick defeat of all of Tyre. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the island settlement was much more difficult to defeat than the mainland settlement. Generations of Tyrians died content that the God of the Bible was not able to successfully carry out his threats that the would would cause the destruction of Tyre. If the God of the Bible does not exist, the defeat of Tyre was perfectly normal in military terms. In addition, since Tyre had great wealth, it is reasonable to assume that the Jews became jealous of Tyre's wealthn and invented and/or revised prophecies against Tyre after the facts.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ha Ha Ha! What evidence do you have that Zek rewrote his prophecy.

Since the Bible is the claimant, not skeptics, all that I need to do is provide reasonable plausibilities.

What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not recorded after the events, or revised after the events?

The Dead Sea Scrolls have absolutely proved that Daniel wrote about Greece/Alexander the Great two hundred years before these events happened. Sorry, not buying that "prophecy is a forgery" rubbish.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Dead Sea Scrolls have absolutely proved that Daniel wrote about Greece/Alexander the Great two hundred years before these events happened. Sorry, not buying that "prophecy is a forgery" rubbish.

I will be happy to debate the book of Daniel with you in a new thread, but this thread is about the Tyre prophecy. Please stay on topic.

I will also be happy to debate whether or not the Dead Sea Scrolls have absolutely proved that Daniel wrote about Greece/Alexander the Great two hundred years before these events happened. If you want to debate that issue, please start a new thread at this forum.

An article at http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tz/critic.html adequately demolishes the credibility of the book of Daniel. If you wish to debate that article, please start a new thread at this forum.

Bible prophecy discredits Christianity. If God really wanted people to believe that he can predict the future, he was have made indisputable prophecies thousands of years ago. For instance, he could have predicted when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. Refusing to do that could not possibly benefit God or anyone else, and has only served to create doubt and confusion, and limit the size of the Christian church, and limit confidence in Bible prophecy. Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? Well, er, uh.

01-20-2008, 12:18 PM	#1
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Tyre Prophecy Revisited I did not plan on writing on this again, but the critics are still bringing this up, so let us go back to this accurate prediction of Ezekiel. Now the critics says that Ezekiel has Nebby attacking Island Tyre. But there is something funny about this because all the weapons used by Nebby are land based, and there were no causeway connecting the island with the mainland. So how did Nebby "siege island Tyre?" History it seems is silent about this. They say he sieged it but does not tell us how. Critics have made up their own history on how Nebby acomplished this, but were they there to witness this event? certainly not. Ask them why would Tyre surrender to Nebby or pay tribute to him, they say things like because Nebby would have used a economic embargo on them and other such rubbish. If that was true then why did they resist Greece, who had this same power and who actually had ships? Well lets take a CLOSE look what Zek says: "Behold , I am against you O Tyrus, and will cause MANY NATIONS to come up against you, as the sea cause his waves to come up...." Here God says MANY NATIONS will come against Tyre like the waves of the seas. Waves ofcourse comes at different times. "Behold I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings..." Now here critics claims that the army under Nebby are the many nations predicted that would come against Tyrus. But look at the text Nebby's army is considered one army. A multi-national force is a coalition of soveriegn nations that are not under a single command (like the forces in Iraq) But this army is considered the army of Babylon under one command. Look at what Zek says: "a king of kings, from the NORTH, with horses and with chariots, and with horsemen and COMPANIES and MUCH PEOPLE.... With HIS AXES (his not theirs) HIS HORSES (not theirs) WHEN HE ENTER YOUR GATES (NOT THEY) HE SHALL BREAK DOWN YOUR WALLS (NOT THEY) HE SHALL SET ENGINES OF WAR AGAINST YOUR WALLS (NOT THEY) Notice that not only are these so-called multi-national forces are referred to as a single army it is an army targeting a mainland city and not an island because how can engines of war be set against walls that has no land outside of them? How can a physical siege be employed against a island fortress without ships...especially ships that did not have battering rams? How can wheels and chariots, be used when there was no causeway nor land outside the walls of Tyre? Did Nebby have some kind of special technology? No. Come on people this is basic common sense, which I'm sure Ezekiel had and would not have foretold Nebby attacking an island with these weapons that are completely useless against the kind of fortress like Island Tyre. Ezekiel was after all alive during this time. He clearly fortells Neby attacking the mainland city. Critics says that the daughters in the field is the mainland city and suburbs. In the bible the daughter city is the city that comes after the mother city. History has it that Old Tyre was the mainland city and that island Tyre was settled from the mainland, so who is the daughter and who is the mother? Mainland Tyre is the Mother city. It was the mother city and the villeges in the field that Nebby destroyed. THEY are the "many nations" that is separate from Nebby. Because we know from history that Nebby did not plunder Tyre nor build any causeway. Here Ezekiel predicts that THEY: "....shall make a spoil of your riches, and make prey of your merchandise .....and They shall LAY (lay means to build not throw, this shows that something was to be built in the water!!) your stones and your timber and your dust (even the dirt!) in the midst of the water." Alexander did these very things as foretold!! He built the causeway using rubble that he made by destroying what was left of Mainland Tyre. God says that he would make this place like the top of a rock and that it would not be built again. Critics says the city of Tyre is still there. Not in the place where it use to be. Look! they say pointing to either a city on the island the causeway or a city on the mainland a pretty good distance away from the coast. But if you look right behind the buildings on the causeway, right behind the old coastline where Alex aquired rubble from the old city you will see a large bare spot which seems that construction has went out of its way to advoid. It encloses the Roman hippodrome which is more than large enough to house within it a large city. It is completely bare, and no building can ever take place there again because it is a UNESCO protected site. "thou shall be built no more" certainly has come true. Now something interesting happens in verse 19 and 20. In the preceding verses God says that the city shall be like the top of a rock a place for fishing and will not be built. That was caused by human armies. But in these verses God says it will become desolate and uninhabited when He bring the deep over it bringing it down into the pit the low parts of the earth. Now how can he do this if there is no city there? Critics like to say that the text says that Nebby was to completely destroy both the mainland and the island cities. If that was true then why does God says it will only be desolate when He bring the deep over it? And how can one place be a place to spread nets on and like the top of a rock when it is buried under the sea? This proves that Tyre inhabits a different or two locations. The city that is to be desolated and uninhabited when it is buried under the sea deep in the "low parts of the earth" is the current city on the island. One location cannot both be a place to spread nets on and like the top of a bare rock and be desolate and uninhabited. Because if fishers are there that means people are there which means it cannot be desolate and uninhabited. Thus we have two judgements for two locations. This also proves that island Tyre was not to be destroyed by Nebby. Isaiah has Tyre reestablishing itself as a commercial power after the Babylonian 70 year rule, Jeremiah has Tyre listed as one of the nations that would serve Babylon for seventy years. Nebby was not to destroy Tyre completely. Because if he was then there would be no need for God to destroy a city that isn't there. :wave:

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01-20-2008, 01:08 PM	#2
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	It is absurd for anyone to believe that a God exists who wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If he did, all that he would have needed to do would have been to make some indisputable predictions regarding when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. There is no way that God intended for prophecy to strengthen the faith of Old Testament Jews. If he did, he would have told Ezekiel about Alexander. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled. They certainly believed that it would be fulfilled during their lifetimes. First of all, they believed that God was angry with the Tyrians, and wanted to destroy Tyre. They certainly would not have believed that it would take centuries for God to punish the Tyrians. In addition, they certainly would not have expected God to punish the Tyrians' great great great great grandchildren for the ancestors' sins. Further, it was wrong for God to punish Tyrian babies for sins that their parents committed. There is no way that Ezekiel would have predicted that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would invade Tyre, go down its streets, and tear down its towers, and fail to conquer Tyre. When it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre, that is when someone added the "many nations" part to Ezekiel 26, and falsely claimed in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. There is little doubt that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar's plans to invade Tyre in advance. Nebuchadnezzar had a penchant for conquest, and his kingdom was located close to Tyre. Since even the New Testament criticizes Tyre, a reasonable case can be made that Jews and Christians were jealous of the wealth of Tyre, and wanted God to punish Tyre because the Tyrians were able to gain wealth that they were not able to gain. Considering the fact that most of the people in the world at that time who had heard about the God of the Bible opposed him, it is an absurd notion that God would pick on just one kingdom out of all of the kingdoms in the world, take centuries to cause the defeat of the kingdom, inspire Ezekiel to claim that "a kings of kings" would invade Tyre and fail to defeat it, and break his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. If anything, the Tyre prophecy weakened the faith of generations of Jews, strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians, and reduced the size of the current Christian church by failing to mention that Alexander would defeat Tyre. The Tyre prophecy is one of the very best examples that proves that the Bible is fraudulent.

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