Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-26-2012, 09:33 PM

There is a famously garbled passage in Irenaeus (AH 2.14) we are told - with approval - that the name for Jesus means "the Lord (Yahweh), heaven (Shamim) and earth (U’eretz).” I have started to notice that Acts uses this title no less than the gospel. First Simon Magus:

Quote:

Now he who speaks of God as an avenging and rewarding God, presents Him as naturally just, and not as good. Moreover he gives thanks to the Lord of heaven and earth [Clementine Homilies 17]

Quote:

And Simon, being vexed at this, said: “Blame your own teacher, who said, ‘I thank Thee, Lord of heaven and earth, that what was concealed from the wise, Thou hast revealed to suckling babes.’” And Peter said: “This is not the way in which the statement was made; but I shall speak of it as if it had been made in the way that has seemed good to you. Our Lord, even if He had made this statement, ‘What was concealed from the wise, the Father revealed to babes,’ could not even thus be thought to point out another God and Father in addition to Him who created the world. [Clementine Homilies 18]

In the anti-Marcionite treatise preserved in Tertullian's Against Marcion Book Four:

Quote:

For He says, "I thank thee, and own Thee, Lord of heaven, because those things which had been hidden from the wise and prudent, Thou has revealed unto babes."

The original reading of the gospel passage was:

Quote:

“I praise you, Lord (Yahweh), heaven (Shamim) and earth (U’eretz), because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

also Acts:

Quote:

God, who made the world, and all things therein, He, being Lord (Yahweh), heaven (Shamim) and earth (U’eretz), dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is He touched by men's hands, as though He needed anything, seeing He gives to all life, and breath, and all things; who has made from one blood the whole race of men to dwell upon the face of the whole earth, predetermining the times according to the boundary of their habitation, to seek the Deity, if by any means they might be able to track Him out, or find Him, although He be not far from each of us. For in Him we live, and move, and have our being, as certain men of your own have said, For we are also His offspring. Inasmuch, then, as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold or silver, or stone graven by art or man's device. Therefore God, winking at the times of ignorance, does now command all men everywhere to turn to Him with repentance; because He has appointed a day, on which the world shall be judged in righteousness by the man Jesus; whereof He has given assurance by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:24, etc.

PhilosopherJay · 04-26-2012, 09:53 PM

Hi Stephan Huller,

Really interesting stuff.

In the last quote from Acts 17:31, the name Jesus does not appear in the Greek.
It would make more sense with the rest of the passage if it said:

Quote:

Therefore God, winking at the times of ignorance, does now command all men everywhere to turn to Him with repentance; because He has appointed a day, on which the world shall be judged in righteousness whereof, by the man, He has given assurance by raising Him from the dead.

In other words, the passage did not refer originally to any particular man, but just the idea generally of raising men from the dead. It was, of course, a common belief that God had the raised the dead.

Assuming that the term "Jesus" means "Lord of Heaven and Earth" and Christ just means "Savior" and both terms are used together or separately to refer to Yahweh explains about 98% of the obscure passages in Paul.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

There is a famously garbled passage in Irenaeus (AH 2.14) we are told - with approval - that the name for Jesus means "the Lord (Yahweh), heaven (Shamim) and earth (U’eretz).” I have started to notice that Acts uses this title no less than the gospel. First Simon Magus:

Quote:

Now he who speaks of God as an avenging and rewarding God, presents Him as naturally just, and not as good. Moreover he gives thanks to the Lord of heaven and earth [Clementine Homilies 17]

In the anti-Marcionite treatise preserved in Tertullian's Against Marcion Book Four:

The original reading of the gospel passage was:

also Acts:

Quote:

God, who made the world, and all things therein, He, being Lord (Yahweh), heaven (Shamim) and earth (U’eretz, dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is He touched by men's hands, as though He needed anything, seeing He gives to all life, and breath, and all things; who has made from one blood the whole race of men to dwell upon the face of the whole earth, predetermining the times according to the boundary of their habitation, to seek the Deity, if by any means they might be able to track Him out, or find Him, although He be not far from each of us. For in Him we live, and move, and have our being, as certain men of your own have said, For we are also His offspring. Inasmuch, then, as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold or silver, or stone graven by art or man's device. Therefore God, winking at the times of ignorance, does now command all men everywhere to turn to Him with repentance; because He has appointed a day, on which the world shall be judged in righteousness by the man Jesus; whereof He has given assurance by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:24, etc.

outhouse · 04-26-2012, 09:56 PM

Put the coffee down LOL

I could see the hellenized authors adding to this after the fact to contribute to how divine they wanted him to be.

But ive had way to much coffee as well.

stephan huller · 04-26-2012, 10:03 PM

Genesis 2:4 is critical here. Why does the Masoretic text reverse the normal ordering of the pairing = "earth and heaven" rather than "heaven and earth"? Ephrem's text of Genesis 2:4 read "heaven and earth" http://books.google.com/books?id=D3B...3A4%22&f=false. Philo's text read "heaven and earth." I just checked - LXX, Samaritan and Peshitta all read "heaven and earth." How on earth could the Jewish scribes have reversed something so fundamental?

stephan huller · 04-26-2012, 11:10 PM

Clement comes the closest to identifying Jesus as "the Lord of heaven and earth"

Quote:

That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated, and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: This is the book of the generation: also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth. Genesis 2:4 For the expression when they were created intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression in the day that God made, that is, in and by which God made all things, and without which not even one thing was made, points out the activity exerted by the Son. As David says, This is the day which the Lord has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it; that is, in consequence of the knowledge imparted by Him, let us celebrate the divine festival; for the Word that throws light on things hidden, and by whom each created thing came into life and being, is called day. And, in fine, the Decalogue, by the letter Iota, signifies the blessed name, presenting Jesus, who is the Word. [Strom 6.145]

Lugubert · 04-27-2012, 05:17 AM

At least for Indo-European languages, my view is that any effort to explain a word as an acronym is wrong. Obvious counterexamples are mainly in science, like radar ("Radio Detection And Ranging"). But many suggestions are like the error that pops up from time to time is that the fairly generic name for health resorts "spa" is an acronym from Latin "salus per aquam", i.e. health from water. The explanation is of course that it's referring to the Belgian city Spa, which early on established itself as a health resort.

I'm aware of Semitic instances like Maimonides aka RaMBaM (רמב"ם – Hebrew acronym for "Rabbi Mosheh Ben Maimon"), but am still very sceptical to the OP case.

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

As David says, This is the day which the Lord has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it; that is, in consequence of the knowledge imparted by Him, let us celebrate the divine festival

And be circumcised, while you're about it.

Sheshbazzar · 04-27-2012, 06:31 AM

For believers, being circumcised, and keeping the Feast is, and always will be required mitzvah of the Torah.

stephan huller · 04-27-2012, 07:18 AM

mitzvot

Sheshbazzar · 04-27-2012, 10:20 AM

.....לבלתי רום־לבבו מאחיו ולבלתי סור מן־המצוה

כי המצוה הזאת אשר אנכי מצוך היום לא־נפלאת הוא ממך ולא רחקה הוא׃

ואת־החקים ואת־המשפטים והתורה והמצוה אשר כתב לכם תשמרון לעשות כל־הימים

'ה מצוה'

'ha mitzvah'

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04-26-2012, 09:56 PM	#3
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Put the coffee down LOL I could see the hellenized authors adding to this after the fact to contribute to how divine they wanted him to be. But ive had way to much coffee as well.

04-26-2012, 10:03 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Genesis 2:4 is critical here. Why does the Masoretic text reverse the normal ordering of the pairing = "earth and heaven" rather than "heaven and earth"? Ephrem's text of Genesis 2:4 read "heaven and earth" http://books.google.com/books?id=D3B...3A4%22&f=false. Philo's text read "heaven and earth." I just checked - LXX, Samaritan and Peshitta all read "heaven and earth." How on earth could the Jewish scribes have reversed something so fundamental?

04-27-2012, 05:17 AM	#6
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	At least for Indo-European languages, my view is that any effort to explain a word as an acronym is wrong. Obvious counterexamples are mainly in science, like radar ("Radio Detection And Ranging"). But many suggestions are like the error that pops up from time to time is that the fairly generic name for health resorts "spa" is an acronym from Latin "salus per aquam", i.e. health from water. The explanation is of course that it's referring to the Belgian city Spa, which early on established itself as a health resort. I'm aware of Semitic instances like Maimonides aka RaMBaM (רמב"ם – Hebrew acronym for "Rabbi Mosheh Ben Maimon"), but am still very sceptical to the OP case.

04-27-2012, 06:31 AM	#8
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	For believers, being circumcised, and keeping the Feast is, and always will be required mitzvah of the Torah.

04-27-2012, 07:18 AM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	mitzvot

04-27-2012, 10:20 AM	#10
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	.....לבלתי רום־לבבו מאחיו ולבלתי סור מן־המצוה כי המצוה הזאת אשר אנכי מצוך היום לא־נפלאת הוא ממך ולא רחקה הוא׃ ואת־החקים ואת־המשפטים והתורה והמצוה אשר כתב לכם תשמרון לעשות כל־הימים 'ה מצוה' 'ha mitzvah'

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