GPLindsey

In Matthew 26, just before his arrest, Jesus takes his desciples to Gethsemane. He has some wait in one place, then he took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee on a little further and had them wait. Then Jesus went off and did his famous "let this cup pass from me" prayer. He comes back and finds everyone sleeping. He chides them, tells them to stay awake and pray, then Jesus wanders off again for more prayers to God about the "cup" and letting God's will be done. He turns around and guess what--all the desciples are asleep again! The whole point of this passage seems to be that Jesus was having an entirely private prayer with his Heavenly Father, just before his arrest (The other Gospels have similar but not entirely reconcilable versions, which I won't try to dissect in this post).

My problem--if Jesus was alone and all the desciples were asleep, then who was the human eyewitness that overheard the prayer, to allow it to be recorded into Matthew ultimately? The Bible itself says the desciples were asleep, and Jesus didn't have time to fill them in on what he prayed about before his arrest. Perhaps an apologist can argue that the desciples only fell asleep the second Jesus got up and turned to look at them, so they did hear his prayer. But this explanation gives the passage a cartoonish quality (Elmer Fudd talks on the phone with the Acme Shotgun company, and Daffy is listening in--he turns his head and Daffy's asleep--he talks some more on the phone and Daffy is listening in again--he turns his head and Daffy is asleep again, etc.) and clearly contradicts what the author was trying to communicate. Also, I suppose, Jesus could have told the desciples what he said in that prayer after he rose from the dead, but the Bible doesn't say he did that. Besides, what would be the point of a resurrected Jesus telling his desciples, "Now that I'm back, let me tell you about how unnerved I was about the upcoming crucifixion. Back in Gethsemane, when you goofs were asleep, I actually prayed to God that he let this cup pass from me...."

So Matthew could not have witnessed this prayer, Jesus never told him or the other desciples of the prayer, and there were no other eyewitnesses to the prayer. So this episode doesn't even have the benefit of hearsay evidence for support. Why is this passage believed?

RUmike

It can only be believed on "faith". On historical grounds it cannot be taken as reliable evidence.

teknoise

I've come across this before.

The general response is that the Bible is supposedly "God inspired". Because "God can see and hear all" he would let the Bible writers know what to put in there.

The problems with this are obvious, but thats the kind of answer you should expect from a Christian on this topic.

WishboneDawn

Some christians, like me, would say it's because Matthew made it up. He was a writer with points to make. A moment in a garden where a man has to face his coming death without any human companioship is a good bit of storytelling.

RUmike

Just to be more specific, if the story was indeed made up, Matthew did not do it. Mark did (or his source). Matthew then copied this story from Mark when creating his gospel (according to the Two-Source Hypothesis accepted by 90%+ of NT scholars).

Newton's Cat

The original version of Mark was writen as a work of fiction, meant to be understood as such by the reader (over half of Mark as we have it today is the product of deliberate, fraudulent interpolation calculated to drastically alter the storyline of the original). Jesus was praying on his father's grave. He was talking to his deceased father. Who was Jesus' father supposed to be?

robto

Rather than "fiction", "dramatization" might describe the process better. The gospels are a dramatic retelling of Jesus's life, meant to be read aloud to an audience. In a movie about a historical figure, do you expect every line of dialogue to come from some written or taped record? Of course not - that would be a documentary, not a movie. The gospels are "based on a true story", but they're not meant to be transcripts of actual events.

RUmike

Alright guys, start documenting your theories. Speculation won't be good enough.

Julian

You keep asserting these things. Can you provide any evidence or is it just speculation?

Surely Mark is fictional to a great extent but what reason do you have to infer that it has been as radically changed as you postulate?

Julian

Codec

I have the same question about 1 Peter 3:18-20. How do we know that Jesus descended to hell and preached to those waiting there between crucifiction and resurrection.
Maybe he kept a blog?