Julio

How genuine is this prayer?
The disciples were tired and sleeping.
They were at a distance.
John is writing the production SIXTY YEARS later [following the conservative opinions of Scofield and his chronology of gospel writing - in the Scofield Bible].
How could John remember verbatim what Jesus murmured at a distance, while he [John] was sleeping?
Now, Higher Criticism has studied this gospel in depth, and has located its production more than 100 years after Pentecost!
My question is: how genuine is this prayer?

Civil1z@tion

Gawd did it. Duh.

MrFrosty

Thread moved to BCH.

spamandham

How genuine is the prayer? Well, the author of John, or one of the later editors genuinely wrote it, if that's what you mean. Did Jesus actually pray it? It seems a bit unlikely, don't you agree?

Julio

It looks like it is not genuine.
If copyists had a freehand in correcting the text, what then is even genuine from the "original" choreographer?
"Prayers" from holy heroes were commonplace for centuries, like relics of a different sort.
...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...Gospel_of_John

"Since the "higher criticism" of the 19th century, historians have largely rejected the gospel of John as a reliable source of information about the historical Jesus.[3][4] "[M]ost commentators regard the work as anonymous."[5]"

andrewcriddle

I think this scenario is wrong. John 17 is clearly set before Jesus and the disciples reach the Garden of Gethsemane. See John 18:1

Andrew Criddle

Davka

Agreed. Also read the last few verses of John 16. The way the story goes is this: Jesus was talking to his disciples during and/or after their Passover meal (John 13, 14, 15, 16). He concluded this fairly lengthy teaching with a prayer (John 17). Then Jesus and the 12 disciples walked across the Kidron valley to the Garden of Gethsemane, where Judas betrayed him (John 18).

Did any of this actually happen? Nobody can say for certain. The lack of extra-Biblical accounts of Jesus' life, coupled with the lack of original NT manuscripts, makes any kind of verification impossible. It seems to me likely that someone named Jesus of Nazareth lived, taught, and was crucified as a zealot. But even this is open to question. We just don't know.

aa5874

Jesus was not crucified as a zealot in the NT Canon.

You really have no reason or EVIDENCE to assume that it was likely there was an entity called Jesus who was worshiped as a God by Jews.

The EVIDENCE for such a likelihood is COMPLETELY missing.

Examine your own words, "The lack of extra-Biblical accounts of Jesus' life, coupled with the lack of original NT manuscripts, makes any kind of verification impossible."

It should be that the lack of evidence more likely supports non-existence.

All things considered non-existent have no EVIDENCE to support their existence.