Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-03-2013, 08:27 AM

I have always been suspicious of those who promote the claims about a 'mythical Jesus' because - quite frankly - the argument seemed to be entirely self-serving to those who want to make Jesus go away for personal reasons. It's the same thing when a black person tells me that Egyptians were black or Jews tell me they are the chosen people. In any event, a new line of argument has recently struck me which I thought might be interesting for those in the forum.

The mysterious figure of 'the Samaritan woman' of John chapter four has always intrigued me, mostly because I am interested in the Samaritans. She is said by Jerome to have been a Dosithean and by other Greek sources to have been named Foti (Φωτη) or Fotini (Φωτεινη) or 'enlightenment.'

I couldn't help notice that when the Peshitta translates that term into Syriac:

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The light of the body is the eye if therefore thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light (φωτεινὸν) [Matthew 6:22 cmp. Luke 11:32 - 36]

it does so as nahira (ܢܗܝܪ). I can't help but think that this figure that Jesus was talking to standing at the Samaritan mountain was originally related to the gnostic personality Norea which in due course might allow us to be able to formulate a thesis that the anonymous Samaritan woman might well be a truly mythical woman.

Norea and nahira ultimately come from the Semitic root nhr 'to grow bright, shine, remember.' But are they different names applied to the same person? And if so how was it done?

The figure of Norea is first referenced in our surviving literature by Irenaeus who mentions a gnostic sect who revere a woman of this name who was Seth's wife/sister. Epiphanius mentions the same woman as being the wife of Noah. He accuses the gnostics of borrowing from the Greeks (for Deucalion's wife was named Pyrrha in those sources) and also criticizes them on a number of other accounts especially the idea that this Norea could have lived from the time of Seth to Noah.

Nevertheless if my theory is correct this woman was understood to have lived to the time of Jesus and more importantly to have been married to 'six husbands' - the number of 'angelic archons' directly involved in Creation according to some accounts. The relationship with the archons is already alluded to be Heracleon in Origen's Commentary on John. But more importantly Birger Pearson has recognized her appearance in the Greek text of the Acts of Archelaus.

Pearson notes that the adjective ώραία is used in such a way that makes it clear that it must originally have been associated as the name of the virgin:

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A certain virgin comely (ώραία) and well-adorned attempts to despoil the archons that had been borne up and crucified in the firmament by the Living Spirit, and she appears to the male archons as a beautiful woman, but to the female archons as a handsome and lusty young man. The archons, whenever they look at her in her beautiful appearance, are overcome with the passion of love, and unable to grasp her they burn terribly, out of their minds with the pangs of love. Whenever they run after her the virgin disappears. (Hegemonius, Acta Archelai 9 GCS ed. Beeson).

Yet I think we can take this one step further. Epiphanius connects this same Norea with the extremely early Christian heretic Nicolaus. Nevertheless it is generally unknown that Clement of Alexandria - undoubtedly borrowing from the same literary source or tradition as Epiphanius - speaks of Nicolaus's 'wife' in identical terms:

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But when we mentioned Nicolaus’ remark we omitted one point. They say that he had a pretty wife (ὡραίαν γυναῖκα). After the Savior’s resurrection he was accused of jealousy by the apostles. He brought his wife out into their midst and offered her to anyone who wanted her in marriage. They say that his action was consistent with the saying "The flesh is to be treated with contempt." Those who are members of his sect follow his word and act simply and uncritically, and indulge in unrestrained licence. (Clement Stromata 3.25)

In other words, all the silly stories about the Nicolatians 'sharing women in common' or engaging in sexual promiscuity is clearly based on their 'sharing' a spiritual bride in common - Norea/Horaia.

This is confirmed a little further when Clement goes on to twist the original meaning of their interpretation of scripture:

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Anyway, there is a story that one of them encountered one of our beautiful virgins (παρθένῳ ὡραίᾳ) and said, "It is written, ‘Give yourself to anyone who asks.’" She did not understand the fellow’s impudence and replied with the height of propriety, "If the subject is marriage, speak to my mother." What godlessness! These communists in sexual freedom, these brothers in lustfulness, actually pervert the Savior’s words. They are a disgrace not just to philosophy but to the whole of human life. They deface the truth, or rather raze it to the ground insofar as they can. The wretches make a religion out of physical union and sexual intercourse, and think that this will lead them into the kingdom of God. (ibid 3.27)

I cannot believe that anyone is so stupid that they really believe that these gnostics partook in orgies and wife swapping (but of course it does help sell books which is probably why people like Bart Ehrman allow the material to pass at face value).

But the question is how can we connect Fotini 'the Samaritan woman' of the original lost gospel with Norea the gnostic virgin? Clearly Jesus was understood to be saying that he was her true husband in the gospel. Also Ephrem's identification of her with Mary Magdala is also significant. There must have been one 'woman companion' figure who ran throughout the course of the original gospel narrative, split up into different figures. The idea of the 'virgin Mary' must also have grown out of this beautiful (ώραία) virgin hypostasis.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2013, 02:01 PM

Yo Chili. This is one for your unique interpretational skills.

Onias · 02-03-2013, 02:40 PM

Hi Stephan,
I have often thought this was actually a parable full of symbolism

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John 4:18
For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

I think it is unlikely that Jesus would be favorably disposed towards this Samaritan woman since Jews and Samartians had been enemies for centuries. I think the woman's past 5 husbands symbolize the various Assyrian tribes who had been brought into the area to colonize this former territory of the House of Israel after most of the Israelites had been forcibly relocated. The remnant of Israel then fornicated with these tribes and thus became accursed in the eyes of the House of Judah. And Jesus, the one "thou hast now {who} is not thy husband" cannot accept a woman of Samaria as a bride as a result of this.

Grog · 02-03-2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been suspicious of those who promote the claims about a 'mythical Jesus' because - quite frankly - the argument seemed to be entirely self-serving to those who want to make Jesus go away for personal reasons.

Isn't this a huge generalization? How could you possibly know the motivations of those who have concluded the evidence points toward early Christians believing in a mythical Jesus? How are they served by this view?

mountainman · 02-03-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been suspicious of those who promote the claims about a 'mythical Jesus' because - quite frankly - the argument seemed to be entirely self-serving to those who want to make Jesus go away for personal reasons.

Isn't this a huge generalization? How could you possibly know the motivations of those who have concluded the evidence points toward early Christians believing in a mythical Jesus? How are they served by this view?

Not only that but there are some of us who would like to see some unambiguous and non-fabricated legitimate evidence that Jesus was ever here on planet Earth in the first place.

To paraphrase the OP ...

I have always been suspicious of those who promote the claims about a 'historical Jesus' because - quite frankly - the argument seemed to be entirely self-serving to those who want to make Jesus remain on planet Earth along with the false authority of the bible, for personal reasons such as tenure, societal prestige and the age old pressure to remain within the peer-reviewed flock.

stephan huller · 02-03-2013, 07:16 PM

I was making a personal admission and then the rest of the post goes on to demonstrate that there is more to the 'mythical gospel narrative' than that.

stephan huller · 02-03-2013, 07:23 PM

Back to the OP. It is interesting to note that Canticles Rabbah commenting on this line:

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It was but a little that I passed from them but I found him whom my soul loveth I held him and would not let him go until I had brought him into my mother's house and into the chamber of her that conceived me [Songs 3:4]

references the Tabernacle as 'mother.' Here is the beginning of the explanation of this passage:

Quote:

that means the Tabernacle, for from there issued the obligation from Israel to abide by legal decisions.

The word used for legal decision is horayoth (sing. horah) horah is the feminine of hor = mountain but which is used of wise people and so father, teacher etc. It is very curious to reference the Tabernacle as 'mother.' I wonder if Jesus was originally understood having a conversation with the spirit which inhabited the tabernacle. Mandaean writings feature this idea as well with respect to the Jewish temple (i.e. the Mandaean redeemer holding a discussion with such a female).

stephan huller · 02-03-2013, 07:31 PM

Here is the Mandaean parallel from p 62 - 63 of Mead's translation:

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In the Name of Great Life, may hallowed Light be glorified

Miryai am I, of the Kings al Babel, a daughter, a daughter of Jerusalem's mighty rulers. They have given me birth: the priests brought me up. In the fold of their robe they carried me up into the dark house, into the temple. Adonai laid a charge on my hands and on my two arms: I must scour and cleanse the house [that is] without firmness- There is naught therein for supporting the poor, naught to revive the tormented souls.

My father went to the house of the people, my mother vent to the temple. My father went out and said to me, and my mother went out and charged me: " Miryai, close thy inner doors and bolt the bar. See that thou goest not forth into the main streets and that the suns of my Lord' fall not upon thee."

But I, Mirayi, listened not to what my mother did tell me, and hardened not with the ear to what my father did charge me. I opened the inner doors and the outer let I stand open. Out vent I into the main streets and the suns of my Lord fell upon me. To the house of the people would I not go, but my way bore me onto the temple (of the Mandaeans). I went and I found my brothers and sisters, how they stand and carry on proclamations. My brothers carry on proclamations and my sisters throw out explanations. With the voice of their proclamations and with the voice of their explanations I became drowsy and laid me down on the spot.

My brothers went forth and did not wake me, and my sisters withdrew and roused me not. But thou, my sister in Truth, dost rouse me from sleep, and dost say: " Arise, arise, Miryai, before the day breaks nod the cock lets crow his morn-call, before the sun shines and his glory rises over the worlds, before the priests and the priests' sons go forth and sit them down in the shade of the Ruins--Jerusalem, before thy father comes and brings upset upon thee such as thou never hast had".

I, Miryai, keep secret my prayers and utterly secret keep my discourses.

Early, day began to dawn, early the cock let crow his call, early- the sun shone and his glory rose over the worlds. The priests and priest's sons went out and sat them down in the shade of the Ruins--Jerusalem. Then came my bodily father and brought on me upset such as I never hare had.

He spake:
"Where host come from, thou debauched trough, whom (locks?) and bars (cannot keep in)? Where host thou come from? Woe (unto thee) thou b**** in heat, who (mindest?) not (door-) pins and lockings! Where hast thou come from? Woe, woe (unto thee) thou bit of coarse stuff that has been patched on my robe!"

"If I am a debauched trough, I will burst thy (boltings) and bars. If I am a b***** in heat, I will draw back the pins and the lockings. If I am a bit of coarse stuff that has been patched on thy robe, then out of thy robe cut and rip me"

Thereon he cried:
" Come (pl), look on Miryai, who has left Jewry and gone to make love with her lord. Came, look on Miryai, who has left off coloured raiment and gone to make love with her lord. She forsook gold and silver and went to make love with her lord. She forsook the phylacteries and went to make love with the man with the head-band."

Then Miryai makes answer onto him:
" Far lies it from me to love him whom I hare hated. Far lies it from me to hate him whom I hare loved. Nay, far from me lies it to hate my Lord, the Life's Gnosis, who is for me in the world a support, a support is he in the world for me and a helper in the Light's region. Dust in the mouth of the Jews, ashes in the mouth of all of the priests! May the dung that is under the feet of the horses, come on the high ones and Jerusalem's mighty rulers."

Life is exalted and is victorious, and victorious is the Man who has come hither.

I have always thought there were parallels between the Mandaean John Book and the lost proto-gospel and I think this solidifies it. Don't you think? Why would a girl be living in the Jerusalem temple? The transference of the 'Samaritan woman' to Jerusalem is not that far fetched as both places served the same function.

It is also worth noting that Mead points to an additional narrative in the Oxford manuscript of the same John Book:

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A VARIANT ON THE STORY OF THE BREACH WITH JUDAISM FROM THE OXFORD MANUSCRIPT
In the name of Great Life, may hallowed Light be glorified.

At the door of the house of the people her mother came upon Miryai. Her mother came upon Miryai and put question to her: "Whence com'st thou, my daughter, Miryai, whose face gathers roses? Roses gathers thy face and of sleep are thy eyes full. Full of sleep are thy eyes, and upon thy forehead lies slumber."

Thereon she made answer:: "It is two,--three days today that my brothers sat down in the house of my Father. In my Father's house sat down my brothers and let wonderful proclamations be heard. Because of the voice and the ringing of the proclamation of the treasures, my brothers, there comes no sleep over my eyes. Sleep comes not over my eyes, nor slumber upon my forehead."

" Hast thou not heard, Miryai, my daughter, what the Jews are saying about thee. The Jews are saying: Thy daughter has fallen in love With a man. She has gotten hate against Jewry and lovefor Nazoraeanity. Hate has she gotten against the house of the people and love for the door of the temple. Hate has she gotten against the phylacteries and lore for the daunting wreaths. Work does she on Sabbath, on Sunday she keeps her hands still. Miryai has cast aside straightway the Law that the Seven have laid (upon us)."

As Miryai stands there, she puts dust on her feet, and speaks: "Dust in the mouth of the Jews and ashes in the mouth of all of the priests! May the dung that lies under the horses, come on the elders who are in Jerusalem! I cannot hate him whose love I have won, nor love him 'gainst whom I have gotten hate. Yea, I have won the love of my Lord the Life's Gnosis, (and hope) that in him a helper will for me arise, a helper and a support from the region of Darkness unto Light's region."

Thou hast won the victory, Gnosis of Life, and helped all thy friends to victory.

Already Heracleon understands Jesus to be the 'true husband' of the Samaritan woman while Ephrem references this woman as if she were also Mary Magdalene, the woman whose period was healed, anointed Jesus with her tears etc. It would seem that there was originally a clear mythical substratum to the gospel narrative and it was so interpreted by the Valentinians especially and many others as well.

stephan huller · 02-03-2013, 07:40 PM

The Mandaean redeemer also manages to get 'Miryai' out of the tabernacle and brings her across the Jordan, this time to Iraq:

Quote:

THE EXILED COMMUNITY SETTLE
ON THE EUPHRATES
In the Name of Great Life, may hollowed Light be gloried.

Miryai am I, a vine, a tree, who stands at the mouth of Euphrates (Frash). The tree's leaves are precions stones, the tree's fruits pearls. The vine-tree's foliage is glory, its shoots precious light. Among the trees its scent it diffuses, and it spreads over all the worlds. The birds of the air scented it; a flock settled down on the tree. A flock on it down-settled, and they would build their nest there. They flutter about in it and settle not down in it firmly. Of its foliage they eat …from its inner part they drink wine. They eat what is not to be cast away, and drink what was not wine.

While the birds sat on the vine, winds and tempests broke loose. They shook the good birdlets awake, they smote 'gainst the tree: on all sides they scattered the leaves of the vine-tree and scared the birds out of their place, Many a bird there was who flew not away, but held on fast with claws and with wings, till the winds and the tempests were over. Many again held not on fast and were hurried away….Woe unto those who did not hold fast, but were dashed from the tree and flew off. How fair is the tree of Life and fair the birds who dwell on it !

The winds and the tempests passed and rest came over the world.

As the birds sit there and chirp and would be a-building their nest, as the birds sit on the vine, an eagle wheeled and flew hither. A white eagle-bird came, looked down and caught sight of the birds. Round wheeled he, sped down on them with his wings, and came and sat on the tree. In converse with him joined the birds, and said to him.

"By thy Life, Eagle! On this tree were we birds without number.---But there broke loose against them the winds, and on the tree came raging tempests. They shook them off, from the tree, so that they tore their wings from them (nearly). Many a one held fast, whom the winds and tempests could not tear away: but many a one flew off at top speed---We speak to thee, therefore O Eagle, we ask thee respecting the birds, because thou art sharp of sight and dost see all in this world: What have the winds and the tempests done with those birds, our brothers? What spyest thou out (?) over them? "

Then made be answer unto them: "You had better not to have known, my brothers, what has become of those birds. Sling-shots drove them far from me, their wings broke: torn off were they, broken off; the), they went hence and relied on the bird-catcher's. The harrier and hawk wheeled round them, tore pieces out of their flesh and fed on those who were fat. Woe to those who fell prey to the water: if there was no portion for them at the crossing. Well for you, ye birds, who bald fast to this vine (here): you become a, companionship of Miryai the vine, who stands at the mouth of Euphrates. See and satisfy yourselves, ye birds, that I have come to you. I have come to my brothers to be a support for them in this world. I have come to heal Miryai (come) to bring mater to the good, beloved plants, to the vines, who stand at the mouth of Euphrates. In a white pail I draw water and bring it to my plants. I bear and I hold (it) on the arms of glory which are my own. I bear and I hold (it) and give (them) to drink. Well for him who has drunk of my mater. He drinks, finds healing and confirmation, and grows to double (his stature). The vines who drank water, brought forth good fruit. Their leaves turned on high and made a brave show. The branches, which drank no water, brought forth bitter herbs and wormwood (?). Woe to those who have not gone forward upon the Way; woe to those who here not passed on by the way-stone! They hated Life's Treasure-House: Miryai, the dear Truth.

" My brothers, hold fast, be a companionship of Miryai. I will look round in the world, let Life's call sound forth and rouse the sleeping and make [them]."

The eagle flew off from the tree: he wheeled round and instructed his friends. He speaks to them: "Give ear to me, my brothers! Stay fast and endure persecution. Be a companionship to Miryai. Woe to the Jews, who were a persecution for Miryai. Woe to Elizar, the great house, the pillar that props the temple. Woe to Zatan, the pillar,' who has witnessed lies against Miryai!

THE JEWS PERSECUTE THE MANDAEANS
All the Jews gathered together, the teachers, the great and
the little; they came [togetherl and spake of Miryai:

" She ran away from the priests, fell in lore with a man, and they took hold of each other's bands. Hold of each other's hands they took, went forth and settled at the mouth of Euphrates. We will slay them and make Miryai scorned in Jerusalem. A stake will we set up for the man who has ruined Miryai and led her away. There shall be no day in the world when a stranger enters Jerusalem."

They split open their fellings and catch the doves in Jerusalem.

They Beg Them to Return
All the Jews gathered together and followed after Miryai. They went and found that a throne was set up for Miryai on the bank of Euphrates. A white standard was for her unfurled and a book stood upright on her lap. She reads in the Books of Truth and rouses all worlds from their sleep. She holds in her hand the staff of Life's water, the girdle is bound round her loins. Miryai in humbleness prays and proclaims with wondrous voice. The fishes gather out of the sea, the birds' from the mouth of Euphrates. They come to hear Miryai's voice and no more long to lie down to sleep. They breathe in the sweet scent around her and forget the world.

When the Jews saw this, they stood up before her. They felt shamed, doubled their fists, smote on the fore-court of their breast and lamented. The mother of Miryai spake, and tears streamed into her bosom.

"Look on me, Miryai, my daughter," says she unto her; "look on me who am thy mother! My daughter art thou and the daughter of all of the priests. Thy head is the great chief of the temple. Rememberest thou not, Miryai, that the Torah lay on thy lap? Thou didst open it, read therein and knewest what stands in it. The outer keys lay in thy hands, and the inner thou didst put in chains. All the priests and priests' sons came and kissed thy hand. Far whom thou wouldst, thou didst open the door: whom thou wouldst not, must turn and go hack to his seat. A thousand stand there and two thousand sit there. They submit themselves to thee, as a eunuch-made slave, and they give ear to thy word in Jerusalem. Why didst thou forget thy brothers and thy heart abandon the priests? Lo, the brides weep in Judea, the women and men in Jerusalem. Their beloved gold have they cast from them, end they give themselves up to wailing and mourning for thee. They say: 'We will make away with our goods, until Miryai returns. Gold forge we (? no longer), and cast away fair raiments of silk and bracelets (?). They stand on the roofs and look out, that they may see thee again in Jerusalem. For thee they make vows, if thou comest to me and we go hence. My daughter, arise, come back to thy dwelling-place the city Jerusalem. Come, light up thy lamps which have been put out from the day when thou with drewest thysellf.' Have no longing after this man, who has prisoned thee and taken thee off. Leave the man, mho is not of thy dwelling place alone by himself in the world. Let him not say: I have gone and carried off Miryai from her place· Come, teach the chidren, so that they may learn. Lay the Torah in thy lap and let us hear thy voice as it used to be. From the moment and the day when thou didst detach the dough has it been covered up…"

When Miryai heard this from her mother, she laughed and rejoiced in her mind: " It surely could not be the Jews," says she unto her, " the infamous, worthless priests! It surely would not be the Jews who stand there and bow damn to a brick grave! They shall be buried in the Darkness.

" Go, go," says she unto them, " ye fools, ye abortions: ye who were not of the world." I am no woman who is stripped for wantoning: and it is not that I have fallen in love with a man. Stripped am I not for returning to you and for again seeing you, doming of blasphemy. Go, go hence from me, ye who have witnessed falsehood and lying against me. Against me ye witnessed wantonness and thieving, and held me up as ye are yourselves. Blessed be the Man who freed me front my fetters and planted my feet here. No wantonness have I committed with him and attempted no theft in the world. Instead of the witness ye have witnessed against me, there came to me prayer and praise giving."

As the priests stand there and speak with Maryai at the mouth of Euphrates, there came a pure eagle-bird, whose wings are the fullness of worlds. He flew down on the Jews, dashed at them with his wings, bound them and sank them down unto the water's bottom, deeper [down] than the foul-smelling mud. He sank them deeper down than the blazing [water] that is inside the dark water. He sank their ships down to the blazing water's bottom. He destroyed the temple and laid fire to Jerusalem.

He brought downfall upon them and in Jerusalem slew the disciples.

He descended unto her (Miryai), folded before her his wings, settled down by her, narrated and proclaimed to her, and they held out the loved hand of Truth to each other. He embraced her in potent embracing, forced her down and set her on the throne.

"Miryai," he speaks to her, "with favor look upon me, remember me in the Life's presence. I am thy Good Messenger, the Man, who gives ear to thy discourse. I beseech thee for the high Truth, the Truth which the Jordans have chosen."

" O Good Treasure," she makes answer unto him, "Treasure whom Life has sent! Thy glory and thy light has risen upon us, and thy honor is approved in Light's region. Everyone who gives ear to thy voice, will be in the pure region included. In Life's Treasury will he be included and thy rays will rise (over him) twofold. For everyone who gives not ear to thy voice, making and sleep will be wiped out. Let him belong to the Jews, to the slaves and all of the priests, the sons of the Harlot. I and thou will circle aloft and victorious mount to Light's region."

May Life be our pledge, and Life is victorious.

I am extremely confident now that this story goes back to the lost proto-gospel which would imply to me at least that the Mandaeans originally went back to a Christian sect which eventually turned against Jesus (or at least the 'official Jesus' of the Nicene tradition).

David Deas · 02-03-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It's the same thing when a black person tells me that Egyptians were black....

?????

I always pictured egyptians as "black" people. What do you have to be to qualify as black these days?

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02-03-2013, 02:01 PM	#2
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Yo Chili. This is one for your unique interpretational skills.

02-03-2013, 07:16 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I was making a personal admission and then the rest of the post goes on to demonstrate that there is more to the 'mythical gospel narrative' than that.

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