Freethought & Rationalism Archive

skinumb · 12-19-2006, 12:46 AM

I'm told Gandhi reckoned SOTM the greatest set of teaching ever. Hence Jesus was one of the world's greatest thinkers.

Given that nothing Jesus was said to have preached was an original thought, can anyone point me to a web source that gives the origins of thoughts/philosophy expressed in SOTM. Failing that any help in linking any of Matthew's account to the OT would be appreciated.

Thanks
Rich

Malachi151 · 12-19-2006, 04:20 AM

Well, most of the sermon comes from the Old Testament, and just re-interprets it along Hellenistic lines.

Quote:

The Beatitudes

1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]

Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I certainly wouldn't call this even a good set of teachings, much less the "best". The people who claim that teachings of Jesus are "the best" are either ignorant, sucking up to the powers that be, simply deluded idealists.

The teachings are totally impractical, and largely nonsense and unfollowable. They contain some good pacifistic ideas, but they aren't realistic, and like all forms of pacifism, they are self-destructive, and even more the teachings from the SOTM are contradicted elsewhere in Matthew, much less the rest of the Gospels.

To me pointing to the SOTM is liking pointing to a good speech by Hitler or Stalin. Its all fluff, no substance. Its like when Bush comes out and says 'America does not tolerate torture, we love everyone, and we want to help spread democracy and freedom," then they sign a torture bill into effect

dzim77 · 12-19-2006, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinumb

I'm told Gandhi reckoned SOTM the greatest set of teaching ever. Hence Jesus was one of the world's greatest thinkers.

Given that nothing Jesus was said to have preached was an original thought, can anyone point me to a web source that gives the origins of thoughts/philosophy expressed in SOTM. Failing that any help in linking any of Matthew's account to the OT would be appreciated.

Thanks
Rich

Book of Deuteronomy.

dzim77 · 12-19-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The teachings are totally impractical, and largely nonsense and unfollowable.

Yeah, it's like, one would have to be transformed from the inside out and become a completely new kind of person -or something like that- just in order to live like Jesus teaches us to live.

jgibson000 · 12-19-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, most of the sermon comes from the Old Testament, and just re-interprets it along Hellenistic lines.

It does? How so?

Perhaps you'd quote from some of the best studies on the Sermon -- i.e, those of Betz (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Guelich (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Strecker (or via: amazon.co.uk) or even Windisch (or via: amazon.co.uk) -- or from what one finds in Davies (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Davies and Allison (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Luz (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Carter (or via: amazon.co.uk) (some, if not all, of which you've surely read given the confidence and air of informed authority with which you make your assertions about the origin and thrust of Matt. 5-7), or from any of the other works on the Sermon listed here, to back up this claim.

JG

Jedi Mind Trick · 12-19-2006, 09:52 AM

Why must it be that Jesus is unoriginal and/or his teachings aren’t all they are cracked up to be? What is the unspoken need?
How many skeptics does it take to burry the man’s reputation? Me thinks thou doest protest to much…

jgibson000 · 12-19-2006, 10:05 AM

Can someone please fix the spelling of the header of this thread?

Jeffrey Gibson

dzim77 · 12-19-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, most of the sermon comes from the Old Testament, and just re-interprets it along Hellenistic lines.

I certainly wouldn't call this even a good set of teachings, much less the "best". The people who claim that teachings of Jesus are "the best" are either ignorant, sucking up to the powers that be, simply deluded idealists.

The teachings are totally impractical, and largely nonsense and unfollowable. They contain some good pacifistic ideas, but they aren't realistic, and like all forms of pacifism, they are self-destructive, and even more the teachings from the SOTM are contradicted elsewhere in Matthew, much less the rest of the Gospels.

To me pointing to the SOTM is liking pointing to a good speech by Hitler or Stalin. Its all fluff, no substance. Its like when Bush comes out and says 'America does not tolerate torture, we love everyone, and we want to help spread democracy and freedom," then they sign a torture bill into effect

Hi Malachi,

Well, you've done it... you've accused people such as Gandhi and Leo Tolstoy of being either "ignorant, sucking up to the powers that be, or simply deluded idealists" and compared Jesus Christ to Hitler and Stalin in the same breath. Impressive

Besides that, I think the thread raises a good point.

If Jesus did not originate the teachings in Matthew, then where did they come from? Did the gospel writers formulate these teachings somewhere between Paul and the compilation of Mark? Did "Matthew" formulate the SOTM somewhere between Mark and his gospel?

What's the mythicist position on this?

Boro Nut · 12-19-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

If Jesus did not originate the teachings in Matthew, then where did they come from?

I can't answer that one, but I do know that Psalms are almost certainly not original. I've probably still got real physical evidence somewhere that one of them was robbed straight off Boney M.

Boro Nut

skinumb · 12-19-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

...and even more the teachings from the SOTM are contradicted elsewhere in Matthew, much less the rest of the Gospels...

Could you point to examples.

Rich

12-19-2006, 12:46 AM	#1
skinumb Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bedford, England Posts: 34	Origins of Sermon on the Mount I'm told Gandhi reckoned SOTM the greatest set of teaching ever. Hence Jesus was one of the world's greatest thinkers. Given that nothing Jesus was said to have preached was an original thought, can anyone point me to a web source that gives the origins of thoughts/philosophy expressed in SOTM. Failing that any help in linking any of Matthew's account to the OT would be appreciated. Thanks Rich

12-19-2006, 10:05 AM	#7
jgibson000 Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,289	sermonm? Can someone please fix the spelling of the header of this thread? Jeffrey Gibson

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12-19-2006, 09:52 AM	#6
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Why must it be that Jesus is unoriginal and/or his teachings aren’t all they are cracked up to be? What is the unspoken need? How many skeptics does it take to burry the man’s reputation? Me thinks thou doest protest to much…

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