Johnny Skeptic

Christians often accuse skeptics of being predisposed against the existence of miracles. Skeptics are in fact predisposed against occurrences of miracles because there is no evidence that any have ever occurred, but any skeptic would love for miracles to be available to help us with our many burdens. If I thought that there was only a 10% chance that miracles exist, I would go out of my way to prove that they do exist. I am defining miracles as events that are beyond the abilities of humans, and made possible by an extra-terrestrial being for the express purpose of benefiting humans.

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.� We need compassion today just as much as people did back then. Today, since there is no evidence that God is compassionate in tangible ways (his allowance of the recent tsunami in Asia is most certainly not an example of compassion), it is reasonable to assume that he never was compassionate in tangible ways.

Splarnst

That's not being predisposed against miracles. That would entail refusing to search for evidence, not pointing out that no one has found any.

You mean attempt to prove. In this case, there is a 90% chance that you can't because they don't exist.

That's not a miracle! Miracles have to be supernatural, in violation of the laws of nature. Advanced alien technology does not qualify as miracles.

Johnny Skeptic

That is correct.

If you could bet $100 that a certain horse could win at the Kentucky Derby, and if you won you would get 1 billion dollars, would you make such a bet? Of course you would. Which would be more important to you, winning 1 billion dollars or having the existence of miracles available to help us with our many needs? Many people with poor health would choose the latter.

If there is a 10% chance that miracles exist, that is easily sufficient odds to encourage an investigation. Millions of people gamble with much less odds of winning.

Sufficiently advanced aliens might be able to raise people from the dead, convert energy into matter, and claim that they were gods.

Splarnst

Yes, absolutely. I was only saying that you might not be able to prove they exist, even if they did I might add.

But these actions would still be natural, and thus not miraculous. Impressive, beneficial, and perhaps effective in duping people into worshipping these aliens, but still not supernatural.

Johnny Skeptic

Some gamblers are not able to be successful at gambling, especially less experenced gamblers, but some are successful, and sometimes quite handsomely I might add. In addition, while there is sufficient proof that some people beat the odds when they gamble, there in nowhere near equal proof that miracles exist.

It doesn't matter since no one could tell the difference, nor would anyone, including Christians, care if they could tell the difference as long as an alien being provided them with a comfortable eternal life.

Splarnst

I think it does matter, philosophically.

achristianbeliever

An event beyond the abilities of humans. Ok what about life coming from
non-life? As far as I know man can't do that. Now a person might say, "But
someday we may be able to do it." But that is a faith-in-the-future
argument. In other words a slippery slope argument. As far as we know we
can't do it. As such as far as Johnny's premise is concerned life coming from
non-life is a miracle. Life from non-life is definitely beneficial to mankind.

A sufficiently advanced alien race may be able to create life from non-life and
call themselves Gods.

p.s. I don't necessarily accept this premise I'm just going by Johnny's
hypothesis.

Johnny Skeptic

But is wouldn't matter at all in reality. In a previous post, you said:

"But these actions would still be natural, and thus not miraculous. Impressive, beneficial, and perhaps effective in duping people into worshipping these aliens, but still not supernatural."

I replied:

"It doesn't matter since no one could tell the difference, nor would anyone, including Christians, care if they could tell the difference as long as an alien being provided them with a comfortable eternal life."

I stand by what I said. In addition, I restate what I said as follows:

Whether an appearance was made by a God or an advanced alien, no one could tell the difference, and no one would care as long as such a being provided them with a comfortable eternal life.

Johnny Skeptic

You may not accept my premise, but the universe is vast, complex, and full of possiblities. What is not now possible here may already be possible somewhere else in the universe.

You said:

"As such as far as Johnny's premise is concerned life coming from non-life is a miracle. Life from non-life is definitely beneficial to mankind."

Let me clarify my position. To Christians, life coming from non-life is a miracle, but there is no evidence that such necessarily has to be the case. Such a notion would have to claim that humans will never be able to create life from non-life, and that possible alien beings have never created life from non-line and never will. Those are merely unprovable speculations. 1500 years ago most Christians would have believed it to be impossible that humans would achieve what they have achieved. In say 75 A.D., if a jet plane had flown overheard, the vast majority of Christians would have considered the event to be supernatural. If the plane had landed and a person got out that said that God had sent him to get them a message, stated the message and flew off again in the plane, most Christians would have believed that the person was from God. The book of Acts says that the discples went about confirming the word with signs and wonders. The plane would definitely have been consider to be a wonder.

If an extra-terrestrial being came to earth and claimed that he was the God of the Bible, and if he healed all of the sick people in the world and demonstrated his power in other beneficial ways, skeptics, and everyone else for that matter, would be happy to accept him as a friend whether or not he was the God of the Bible. It is quite ridiculous for Christians to assume that skeptics are opposed to such things.

achristianbeliever

I already answered this if you paid attention:
So hold on a second this had nothing to do with your opening premise.
Basically your saying because mankind may one day create life from non-life it is no longer a miracle? By that logic anything falls under that possibility. Man may one day be able to bring back from the dead a crucifixion victim. Man may one day be able to create a whole planet capable of supporting life. I even said belief that man will one day accomplish this miracle is a faith-in-the-future argument. You would have to have faith that man will one day create life from non-life. As of right now it is not possible.

But what MAY one day happen in the future was not part of your opening premise. It was not in there. Let us look at your opening post.

you said:
You said nothing in here about man ONE day being able to have the ability. Right now life from non-life are beyond the abilities of humans.

Your criteria was:
1. An event: life from non-life was indeed an event that occurred.
2. Beyond the abilities of humans: Life from non-life is beyond the abilities
of humans as far as we know and any thought otherwise is faith.
3. Made possible by an extra-terrestrial being: Theoretically it could happen.
4. Benefiting humans: Indeed life from non-life is beneficial to mankind.

As far as this criteria is concerned does life from non-life meet the standards of these four criteria listed in the opening post that you yourself created?