Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darklighter · 01-30-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

No he didn't.

God is responsible for all disputes regarding prophecies since he could easily have made many indisputable prophecies. The God of the Bible is immoral.

Indisputable prophecies would never convince anyone. Your counterpart, "Doubting Tomas", didn't believe despite seeing many miracles.

And yet skeptical Thomas was provided with sufficient evidence for him to be able to believe. Why am I not granted the same favor? It's not fair for God to provide a HIGH quality of evidence to people of one time period and then provide LOW quality of evidence to people of another. By "LOW QUALITY" I mean, history does not support the Biblical account of, well, pretty much anything. And the sources you quote do not support your arguement. They, in fact, refute it.

Darklighter · 01-30-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Do you just post anything with the word Tyre in it in the hopes that it might support your lost cause?

Google is not a fundamentalists friend. Someone should tell arnoldo.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-31-2008, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The lesson for you is that Ezekiel prophesied that Nebby would destroy Jerusalem. The jews didn't believe him and threw him in jail. Instead the Jews trusted that Egypt would save them from Nebby. Nebby destroyed Jerusalem, Tyre gloated, Nebby destroyed Tyre. Israel never trusted in Egypt again. Historical fact are historical facts.

And historical falsehoods (such as yours) are historical falsehoods.

In this case, however, your list of historical falsehoods stops short. It doesn't cover the incident which is the topic of this thread: the failure of Ezekiel's "prophecy" that Nebby would defeat, take, plunder and depopulate Egypt.

Why has your supply of falsehoods suddenly dried up, just when you need them the most?

Why not just go ahead and say that the prophecy was successful, in defiance of all historical evidence to the contrary?

Is the prospect of the Lake of Fire beginning to unsettle you?
:devil2:

arnoldo · 01-31-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Sorry to get off topic, I will respond to Johnny S. question in reference to prophecy in the appropriate thread. In any event my argument has been of a historical nature not religious. Tyre (the island) = Tyre (mainland)

http://www.mediterranean-geoarchaeol...AGES/TYR07.pdf

Do you even read the shit you post? This is the first sentence of the document: "Tyre was founded during the third millennium BC on an
easily defendable offshore island".

That was my point, your argumment that Nebby attacked an easily defendanble offshore island for 13 years has absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence. Since Nebby didn't get any wealth from Tyre he then went on to Egypt.

arnoldo · 01-31-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The lesson for you is that Ezekiel prophesied that Nebby would destroy Jerusalem. The jews didn't believe him and threw him in jail. Instead the Jews trusted that Egypt would save them from Nebby. Nebby destroyed Jerusalem, Tyre gloated, Nebby destroyed Tyre. Israel never trusted in Egypt again. Historical fact are historical facts.

And historical falsehoods (such as yours) are historical falsehoods.

In this case, however, your list of historical falsehoods stops short. It doesn't cover the incident which is the topic of this thread: the failure of Ezekiel's "prophecy" that Nebby would defeat, take, plunder and depopulate Egypt.

Wrong again, see the OP for the explanation.

arnoldo · 01-31-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

And, arnoldo, if you had gotten all the way to page 2, you would have read this paragraph:

Quote:

Tyre bears witness to significant coastal modifications since 6000 BP. These are attributed to three complementary dynamics: (1) important coastal artificialisation during the Hellenistic period, with the construction of Alexander the Great’s causeway (Katzenstein, 1997; Marriner et al., 2007); (2) the location of the site at the distal margin of the Litani delta, the Lebanon’s largest fluvial system and a major source of sediment at the Holocene timescale (Abd-el-Al, 1948; Marriner, 2007; Soffer, 1994); and (3) rapid relative sea-level changes, attributed to a tectonic subsidence of the Tyrian horst by w3 m since late Roman times (Morhange et al., 2006).

Notice how there's no mention of Nebuchadrezzar casting anything into the water.

Notice that your argument that Nebby attacked an Island is absurd. Nebby didn't get any wealth from tyre after 13 years.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-31-2008, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Do you even read the shit you post? This is the first sentence of the document: "Tyre was founded during the third millennium BC on an
easily defendable offshore island".

That was my point, your argumment that Nebby attacked an easily defendanble offshore island for 13 years has absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence.

Incorrect.

This is historical fact.

...Still making stuff up, I see. Remember the Lake of Fire...

Of course, YOUR absurd belief that Nebby attacked the mainland for 13 years doesn't have any historical or archaeological evidence: because it's a fairytale made up by apologists (and an obviously ridiculous one at that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Since Nebby didn't get any wealth from Tyre he then went on to Egypt.

...Where he failed again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

And historical falsehoods (such as yours) are historical falsehoods.

In this case, however, your list of historical falsehoods stops short. It doesn't cover the incident which is the topic of this thread: the failure of Ezekiel's "prophecy" that Nebby would defeat, take, plunder and depopulate Egypt.

Wrong again, see the OP for the explanation.

There is no "explanation" in the OP: merely a demonstration of sugarhitman's bizarre reading-comprehension problem.

Apparently you've chosen to believe that Ezekiel was lying when he specifically named Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon as the one who would defeat, take, plunder and depopulate Egypt.

If you believe that Ezekiel was lying: why continue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Notice that your argument that Nebby attacked an Island is absurd. Nebby didn't get any wealth from tyre after 13 years.

You have admitted that the island was easily defendable!

That explains WHY he had to beseige it, and WHY it took him 13 years (and why he still didn't achieve outright victory)!

...Whereas your preferred atlernative is not only historically false, it is ridiculously, impossibly absurd! I think you know this: that's why you have trouble actually typing it out. The mighty army of the Babylonian Empire attacked a trading port on the mainland for 13 years??? Never happened! Ridiculous! Ludicrous!

...And a derail from the topic.

Does this mean that you have NO actual explanation for the failure of the "Egypt prophecy"?

arnoldo · 01-31-2008, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hellow ladies and gents supporters and crits, the skeptics has been riding me about this prophecy of the 40 year desolation of Egypt. To them this one certainly proves that Ezekiel is a false prophet, and proves the bible untrustworthy. But again they are sooo incorrect as usual. When reading this prophecy there are hints which shows that this is a future prediction, but don't take my word for it lets turn to the text.

One reason for this desolation is ofcourse because of their treatment of Israel:

"And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the Lord, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel. When they took hold of you by your hand, you did break, and tore all thier shoulder: and when they leaned upon you, you broke, and made all their loins to be at a stand."

(This seems to imply some sort of betrayal by the Egyptians when Israel leaned on them for support).

In Chapter 30 of Ezekiel according to the text, this happens in the day of the Lord:

"For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; IT SHALL BE THE TIME OF THE HEATHEN (ARMEGEDDON)" Hint 1

Hint 2 (Armegeddon) "And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars there dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness over your land, says the Lord God. Ch.32

Hint 3 (Armegeddon) "When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell there, THEN THEY SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD." CH.32

HINT4 (Armegeddon) In the Book of Joel "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about....Multitudes , multitudes in the valley of decision: FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD is near in the valley of decision. THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE STARS SHALL WITHDRAW THEIR SHINING....EGYPT SHALL BE A DESOLATION, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, FOR THE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE CHILDREN OF JUDAH, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHED INNOCENT BLOOD IN THEIR LAND." jOEL 3

Egypt is to be conquered also by the king of the north. Wait a minute now Nebuchadnezzar is the king of the north right? No. The king of the north is this mysterious prince called Gog. This is what the text say of Gog:

"Are you he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servents the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring you against them?" Eze 38 But I have never seen any reference of Gog by the prophets of the texts as being the king of the north. It was Nebuchadnezzar in Jeremiah who was coming from the north. Nebuchadnezzar is not the king of the north, but the future acts of the king of the north is told through Nebucahdnezzar as well as Antiochus in Daneil, the Assyrian in Isaiah. This king will also smite Egypt.

"Thus says the Lord God, I will also make a multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land.." Eze 30

"And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, the Lord of host." Isaiah 19

"He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape." Daniel 12

After the 40 year desolation and rule of the king of the north: "And the Lord shall smite Egypt: "He shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and He shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them....In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying 'Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance." Isaiah 19

Conclusion: The desolation of Egypt is future, and it will end through conversion. :wave:

The other indisputable fact is that once Zeke stated that Nebby would destroy Jerusalem the Jews ridiculed him and threw him in prison. The Jews then sought help from Egypt to defend itself against Nebby. This was utter failure as Nebby destroyed Jerusalem. Historical facts are historical facts. Israel never trusted in Egypt again and Egypt was never a superpower again.

martini · 01-31-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martini

Quote:

Originally Posted by martini

how does this relate to the relevant prophecy by Ezekiel in 38 and 39 which clearly uses quite literal designations for bows, arrows, etc, and having Israel use these fallen weapons as FUEL instead of WOOD from the forests? you just said it cannot burn -- and if it does, i would imagine it to release quite deadly gases. . . :huh:

Arnoldo, you may have missed my query. answer it at your leisure.

once again, Arnoldo, you seem to be overlooking my responses. i can see that you have your hands tied -- and your feet as well as being gagged -- with other interlocutors but i would appreciate a terse explanation if you feel like your time is limited.

oh, and by the by . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Sorry to get off topic, I will respond to Johnny S. question in reference to prophecy in the appropriate thread. In any event my argument has been of a historical nature not religious. Tyre (the island) = Tyre (mainland)

http://www.mediterranean-geoarchaeol...AGES/TYR07.pdf

Do you even read the shit you post? This is the first sentence of the document: "Tyre was founded during the third millennium BC on an easily defendable offshore island".

PWNED

you specifically cite a source that incontrovertibly tells you the island IS the city and, thus, the ONLY place for the riches of Tyre promised to Nebuchadrezzar but you STILL refuse to concede this point!

it boggles the mind to see a fundamentalist of your caliber use evidence AGAINST HIMSELF and still obstinately maintain his position. :notworthy: when you were called a "fundie" earlier, do you NOW see why this moniker is well-deserved?

Jack the Bodiless · 01-31-2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The other indisputable fact is that once Zeke stated that Nebby would destroy Jerusalem the Jews ridiculed him and threw him in prison. The Jews then sought help from Egypt to defend itself against Nebby. This was utter failure as Nebby destroyed Jerusalem. Historical facts are historical facts.

Yet another COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT AND UTTERLY PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO DERAIL THIS DISCUSSION.

And you have no idea what a "historical fact" is.

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