Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Master Coelacanth · 07-07-2011, 04:23 PM

I had trouble understanding this text. Can anybody help me?

Numbers 5:11-31:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure - then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.

The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband." - here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath - "may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away." Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.

What does "her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people" mean? Abortion? Barrenness and a miscarrying womb? Plain illness that indicates her sin? Any other ideas?

hjalti · 07-07-2011, 04:36 PM

Well, it's at least clear that Yahweh wasn't thinking about the well-being of the fetuses.

It would be interesting to see if we have similar laws in other ancient texts. That could shed some light on this.

jgoodguy · 07-07-2011, 05:11 PM

It is a test for adultery. If the woman is pregnant, she will miscarry as an act of God. A miscarriage as an act of God is not an abortion.

The other curses of it, would seem to indicate a reason not to use it as an abortion technique.

I think that an alert apologist would catch this and defend against it. In my experience, they never do because there is an implication that Yahweh will kill an innocent child because of the guilt of the mother.

ApostateAbe · 07-07-2011, 05:28 PM

It is mainly a test for adultery, but, yes, it would necessarily entail abortion if the woman is pregnant. The "thigh"--which thigh? Left or right?--is actually a euphemism for the reproductive system of the woman. jgoodguy, with all due respect, a miscarriage that God causes is nothing short of an abortion, and a violent hostile one at that. A lot of states in the United States have recently turned such an act into a crime of murder.

hjalti · 07-07-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

A miscarriage as an act of God is not an abortion.

What? I assume that you're not using it in the legal sense. I don't see how this wouldn't be considered an abortion. If I force a potentially pregnant woman to ingest an abortifacient, and she has a miscarriage, that is an abortion, regardless of whether I am a homo sapiens or a spirit called Yahweh.

jgoodguy · 07-07-2011, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

Quote:

A miscarriage as an act of God is not an abortion.

What? I assume that you're not using it in the legal sense. I don't see how this wouldn't be considered an abortion. If I force a potentially pregnant woman to ingest an abortifacient, and she has a miscarriage, that is an abortion, regardless of whether I am a homo sapiens or a spirit called Yahweh.

Quote:

Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

Quote:

The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.

Dirty water and ink do not make an abortifacient do they? Your assertion is without basis.

jgoodguy · 07-07-2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

It is mainly a test for adultery, but, yes, it would necessarily entail abortion if the woman is pregnant. The "thigh"--which thigh? Left or right?--is actually a euphemism for the reproductive system of the woman. jgoodguy, with all due respect, a miscarriage that God causes is nothing short of an abortion, and a violent hostile one at that. A lot of states in the United States have recently turned such an act into a crime of murder.

Is it an abortion or is it a miscarriage.

From the wiki

Quote:

Induced abortion has a long history and has been facilitated by various methods including herbal abortifacients, the use of sharpened tools, physical trauma, and other traditional methods. Contemporary medicine utilizes medications and surgical procedures to induce abortion. The legality, prevalence, cultural status, and religious status of abortion vary substantially around the world. In many parts of the world there is prominent and divisive public controversy over the ethical and legal issues of abortion. Abortion and abortion-related issues feature prominently in the national politics in many nations, often involving the opposing pro-life and pro-choice worldwide social movements (both self-named). Incidence of abortion has declined worldwide as access to family planning education and contraceptive services has increased.[4]

I fail to see the supernatural as a cause of abortion. As near as I can determine, only humans can induce abortions and only by naturalistic means.

The bitter waters are ink and dirty water, which do not induce abortions. This leaves the supernatural and the supernatural does not induce abortions.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Classification

Quote:

Miscarriages can occur for many reasons, not all of which can be identified.

This leaves the supernatural as an explanation for a miscarriage. In short Yahweh can induce miscarriages.

A true skeptic, would reject the supernatural and noting the inefficiency of dirty water and ink to induce much of anything other than a upset stomach would conclude this was intended to get a jealous husband to shut up and stop disturbing the camp. After a few times of seeing smiling wives, pregnant or not, exit unharmed with a husband who has lost 'face' to the camp, the number of jealous husbands will tend to diminish.

Then there is the little matter of Deuteronomy 22:13-19

Quote:

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

In which case the jealous husband really has a downside to wanting this proceedure.

Toto · 07-07-2011, 11:43 PM

There are some previous threads in the archives on this verse.

Numbers 5:12-31 and abortion

It is generally assumed that the "bitter water" was ergot, which was traditionally used as an abortifacient. There is an extensive discussion here.

See also Is the Bible Pro-choice?

Toto · 07-07-2011, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

What? I assume that you're not using it in the legal sense. I don't see how this wouldn't be considered an abortion. If I force a potentially pregnant woman to ingest an abortifacient, and she has a miscarriage, that is an abortion, regardless of whether I am a homo sapiens or a spirit called Yahweh.

Quote:

The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.

Dirty water and ink do not make an abortifacient do they? Your assertion is without basis.

The bitter water was probably the abortifacient.

jgoodguy · 07-08-2011, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

What? I assume that you're not using it in the legal sense. I don't see how this wouldn't be considered an abortion. If I force a potentially pregnant woman to ingest an abortifacient, and she has a miscarriage, that is an abortion, regardless of whether I am a homo sapiens or a spirit called Yahweh.

Quote:

The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.

Dirty water and ink do not make an abortifacient do they? Your assertion is without basis.

The bitter water was probably the abortifacient.

You know this how? The plain text does not support this conclusion.

07-07-2011, 04:23 PM	#1
Master Coelacanth Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Argentina Posts: 7	Is Numbers 5:11-31 about an abortion rite? I had trouble understanding this text. Can anybody help me? Numbers 5:11-31: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure - then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt. The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband." - here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath - "may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away." Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it." The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin. What does "her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people" mean? Abortion? Barrenness and a miscarrying womb? Plain illness that indicates her sin? Any other ideas?

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07-07-2011, 04:36 PM	#2
hjalti Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Iceland Posts: 761	Well, it's at least clear that Yahweh wasn't thinking about the well-being of the fetuses. It would be interesting to see if we have similar laws in other ancient texts. That could shed some light on this.

07-07-2011, 05:11 PM	#3
jgoodguy Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 400	It is a test for adultery. If the woman is pregnant, she will miscarry as an act of God. A miscarriage as an act of God is not an abortion. The other curses of it, would seem to indicate a reason not to use it as an abortion technique. I think that an alert apologist would catch this and defend against it. In my experience, they never do because there is an implication that Yahweh will kill an innocent child because of the guilt of the mother.

07-07-2011, 05:28 PM	#4
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	It is mainly a test for adultery, but, yes, it would necessarily entail abortion if the woman is pregnant. The "thigh"--which thigh? Left or right?--is actually a euphemism for the reproductive system of the woman. jgoodguy, with all due respect, a miscarriage that God causes is nothing short of an abortion, and a violent hostile one at that. A lot of states in the United States have recently turned such an act into a crime of murder.

07-07-2011, 11:43 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are some previous threads in the archives on this verse. Numbers 5:12-31 and abortion It is generally assumed that the "bitter water" was ergot, which was traditionally used as an abortifacient. There is an extensive discussion here. See also Is the Bible Pro-choice?

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