Clivedurdle

Is there clear evidence that:

• The gospels existed before them?

• The concept of a historical jesus existed before them?

Toto

There is no documentary evidence that any gospel existed before Marcion published his canon, although unless you think that Marcion wrote the gospel that he called Luke, it seems likely that a gospel did exist before that.

The gospels are dated to the first century based on literary analysis, which I would not call "clear evidence." But we see through a glass darkly. . .

GakuseiDon

"The Epistle to Barnabas" is dated 80-120 CE, so probably predates Marcion at the least: http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

neilgodfrey

Part of the problem is deciding what is meant by a "historical Jesus" -- it's not as clearcut as you'd think it should sound. It's a bit like asking when a human life began.

The likes of Barnabas give the impression they are placing Jesus on earth for doctrinal reasons and with nothing more than doctrinal supports -- hence the vague generalities of what this Jesus actually did on earth, along with the assurance that everything he did fulfilled some scripture. Seems to me that the idea of a historical Jesus evolved over time from these very theological beginnings.

GakuseiDon

What doctrinal reasons do you mean?

Clivedurdle

That sounds to me like a doctrinal statement and not a historical record!

GakuseiDon

How would it have been expressed if it was a historical record?

Amaleq13

Can you name any historical figure whose existence on earth was described in this way? The identification of specific times and places is the sort of thing one expects from a historical record as opposed to a declaration of incarnation by divine whim. It is clearly a statement of faith and not an attempt to create a historical record.

This does not mean the individual could not have also believed that his statement of faith corresponded to actual historical events. It simply means that what he has stated appears to be an expression of his religious belief rather than an attempt to create a record of history.

neilgodfrey

I meant that Jesus is said to have come to earth because that's what scriptures or in the case of some gnostics what some theological/philosophical idea said he did. In the case of Barnabas (and he's not the only one) the focus is on the scripture's fulfilment and the idea that the Christ came to earth is presented as a function of scriptural meaning and purpose.

That of itself does not exclude the possibility that the writer is aware of someone in real history. But if he presents his Christ as a theological construct then that does rob those references of historical force. Evidence external to such a text is needed. We have stories of Alexander the Great that are presented as fictional constructs and if that's all we had we would have no more logical basis for believing there was a real Alexander than we do a William Tell. It is only evidence external to such texts that tells us if there is a real person behind the texts.

My understanding is that the earliest evidence for the concept of Christ coming to earth is contained within theological constructs, so it's a bit hard to decide where the concept of a real "history" of such a figure begins.

Clivedurdle

I would argue that modern liturgical language in fact acts as evidence of this theological figure who got historicalised.

Why do priests and bishops speak of Christ? This is not using a surname, but acknowledging a heavenly figure.

There is no problem reading all the creeds as faith statements, all of it including born of a virgin, suffered under Pilate etc.

Historicity is an assumption, a reading into the texts. Look at all the heresies about was he god or man or how much of what. These are attempts to "apologise" for an idea of god becoming human. Saying Jesus existed is only one way to interpret it all. Majority views have never been a good test of reality.

Probably the major innovation of xianity is the invention of a human god who we can know personally and has taken away all the sins of the world and in whom we can rest all our cares and woes. Swing low sweet chariot et al.