Duke Leto

There it is a again. Not only do you not refute alternate scenarios, you refuse to even acknowledge that alternate scenarios have been presented.

Duke Leto

What does this quote have to do with anything we've been talking about?

Duke Leto

Of the three ancient historians I know of that wrote histories in which they themselves acted, Julius Caesar and Thucydides both used the third person. Xenophon I think used the 1st person but I'm not sure. I don't think it can be said that it was unheard of by any stretch of the imagination.

stephan huller

we keep coming back to the same point because if I go beyond the data you attack me for speculating about the evidence. This discussion is not being carried out in good faith. That's why I keep going back to these quotes. Admit that the plain meaning of Clement's text is that he understood flavius josephus to have drawn a chronology from moses to david to the tenth year of antoninus and we can move on where ever you'd like - or alternatively provide a BETTER explanation

Duke Leto

I have articulated an alternative explanation several times, you've never even responded to it. Do you need me to go back and post the linked quotes?

DCHindley

Here's that citation (Stromata Book chapter 21, which incidently, is the first time in this thread that the source is specifically stated):

1) Flavius Josephus the Jew, who composed the history of the Jews, computing the periods, says that from Moses to David were five hundred and eighty-five years;	1) [1.21.147.2] … Φλαύιος δὲ Ἰώσηπος ὁ Ἰουδαῖος ὁ τὰς Ἰουδαϊκὰς συντάξας ἱστορίαςκαταγαγὼν τοὺς χρόνους φησὶν ἀπὸ Μωυσέως ἕως Δαβὶδ ἔτη γίγνεσθαι [1.21.147.3] φπεʹ, [500+80+5]
2) from David to the second year of Vespasian, a thousand one hundred and seventy-nine;	2) ἀπὸ δὲ Δαβὶδ ἕως Οὐεσπεσιανοῦ δευτέρου ἔτους ,αροθʹ. [1(000)+100+70+9]
3) then from that to the tenth year of Antoninus, seventy-seven.	3) εἶτα ἀπὸ τούτου μέχρι Ἀντωνίνου δεκάτου ἔτους ἔτη οζʹ, [70+7]
4) So that from Moses to the tenth year of Antoninus there are, in all, two thousand one hundred and thirty-three years.	4) ὡς εἶναι ἀπὸ Μωυ[1.21.147.4]σέως ἐπὶ τὸ δέκατον ἔτος Ἀντωνίνου πάντα ἔτη ,αωλγʹ. [1,000+800+30+3]
5) Of others, counting from Inachus and Moses to the death of Commodus, some say there were three thousand one hundred and forty-two years;	5) ἄλλοι δὲ μέχρι τῆς Κομόδου τελευτῆς ἀριθμήσαντες ἀπὸ Ἰνάχου καὶ Μωυσέως [1.21.147.5] ἔτη ἔφησαν γίνεσθαι ,αωμβʹ, [1,000+800+40+2]
6) and others, two thousand eight hundred and thirty-one years.	6) οἳ δὲ ,ακαʹ. [1,000+20+1]
7) And in the Gospel according to Matthew, the genealogy which begins with Abraham is continued down to Mary the mother of the Lord.	7) ἐν δὲ τῷ κατὰ Ματθαῖον εὐαγγελίῳ ἡ ἀπὸ Ἀβραὰμ γενεαλογία μέχρι Μαρίας τῆς μητρὸς τοῦ κυρίου περαιοῦται·
8) "For," it is said, "from Abraham to David are fourteen generations;	8) γίνονται γάρ, φησίν, ἀπὸ Ἀβραὰμ ἕως Δαβὶδ γενεαὶ ιδʹ, [10+4]
9) and from David to the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations;	9) καὶ ἀπὸ Δαβὶδ ἕως τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος γενεαὶ ιδʹ, [10+4]
10) and from the carrying away into Babylon till Christ are likewise other fourteen generations,"	10) [1.21.147.6] καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος ἕως τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὁμοίως ἄλλαι γενεαὶ ιδʹ, [10+4]
11) -- three mystic intervals completed in six weeks.	11) τρία διαστήματα μυστικὰ ἓξ ἑβδομάσι τελειούμενα.

I think that if one starts with the the fact that Josephus claims to have written to the glory of Vespasian the predicted world ruler who would arise in Palestine, that εἶτα is more reasonably understood to mean "consequently".

But if you look at what is actually in Josephus, and compare it the Clements numbers, you will see that they are not the same or even close. If you ask me, the text of Clement has been corrupted, as the chronology make no sense.

Event	BC/AD	Periods	Exodus to Death of Moses	Creation of Adam to 13th of Domitian	Birth of Moses to 13th of Domitian	Clement David to 2nd of Vespasian	Clement Moses to 10th of Antoninus	Clement Inachus & Moses to death of Commodus	Ditto
Creation of Adam to deluge of Noah		1,556	1,556	1,556
Deluge to Birth of Abraham		892	892	892
Birth of Abraham to departure from Haran		75	75	75
Departure from Haran to Exodus from Egypt		430	430	430
Birth of Moses to Exodus (calculated)					40
Exodus to death of Moses		40	40		40
From Moses to David (per Clement of Alex.)		585					585	585	585
Exodus to building of Temple (592 corrected to		612		612	612
Building of Temple to its Conflagration		466		466	466	466	466	466	466
Conflagration of Temple to 1st of Cyrus		70		70	70	70	70	70	70
1st of Cyrus to 12th of Nero when Antiq. Ends	66	639		639	639	639	639	639	639
12th of Nero to 2nd of Vespasian & Destruction of Jerusalem	70	4		4	4	4	4	4	4
2nd of Vespasian to 13th of Domitian (when Ant was written)	93	23		23	23
2nd of Vespasian to 10th of Antoninus	147	77					77	77	77
Death of Commodus	192							45	45
totals			2,993	4,767	1,894	1,179	1,841	1,886	1,886
Translation							2,133	3,142	2,831
Text itself							1,833	1,842	1,021

The chronology seems a bit confused to me, but maybe I don't understand Greek numbers like Duck Lego and Lego (is) the name of him.

DCH

stephan huller

Thanks David. Finally someone is addressing the issue which I think is pretty fascinating. I have mentioned Stromata Book One Chapter Twenty One at least once (I thought). There are three chronologies here:

1) that of Flavius Josephus 147 CE
2) that of an author who wrote in a subsequent age
3) Matthew

I have read somewhere that the numbers in Clement's Josephus match that of Josephus for the distance between David to Moses. Don't know where I read that. Will have to dig that up. Thanks again for actually talking about something other than me.

Duke Leto

Huh?

I've not even been paying attention to whether Clement's numbers and Josephus' Greek Text match up with each other or any other chronology. Stephan's the one pushing this passage and the apparently identical on in Epiphanus. I make no claim to know anything about Greek numbers and can't read Greek beyond the occasional proper name in the official alphabet.

I mean I assume the Lego thing is tossed in my direction I just don't see what the topic of the post has to do with me...

stephan huller

Apparently there is a reference to the years from Exodus to David as 585 in Josephus

http://books.google.com/books?id=jeF...sephus&f=false

stephan huller

This is how one site does the math: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/oth...sephusMSS.html

[[585 + 1179 + 77 = 1841 (+ 292) = 2133]]