militant midget02

why do christians refer to josephus and tacitus when trying to validate the bible and jesus? my understanding of both are that neither was a contemporary of jesus but they are always made to look like eyewitnesses of jesus.

can anyone explain to me in lay terms the importance of either author and how their has been distorted over the years?

Clouseau

Do Christians refer to Josephus and Tacitus when trying to validate the Bible and Jesus? I don't think so. Christians don't try to validate anything. They preach the gospel, and leave the rest to the deity.

However, people often ask of Christians and non-Christians about early non-Christian sources, and Josephus and Tacitus usually get mentioned. I have never seen any claim from anyone that they were eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry, or even an implication of this.

Toto

Why? Because they don't have anything better. Neither was an eyewitness, but they were writing at a time when there should have been contemporary evidence available to them.

Steve Mason in Josephus and the New Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk) explains that Christians embraced Josephus because of his descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem, which they took as God's vengeance on the Jews for rejecting Jesus. Josephus does not offer this explanation for the destruction of Jerusalem, but it was the Christian adoption of his work that allowed it to be preserved, so it is the only detailed history that we have at the present date of the events in Palestine in the first century. The reference to Jesus in the TF was probably inserted by Eusebius, giving an extra reason to preserve Josephus' work.

Toto

Some self-styled Christians may do this. But Christian apologists try to establish the historical truth of the Christian narrative by appealing to non-Christian sources such as Josephus and Tacitus.

Many Christians do claim that there is eyewitness testimony preserved somehow, usually in the gospels. I would not be surprised if some Christian somewhere did not get this confused.

Clouseau

Why are they believers?

He cannot actually do that, because he does not know who was a Christian, and who wasn't. It's quite hard enough with people who are alive, let alone people dead for over a millennium. The Judaising faction had strong motive for anti-semitism, because it had to put clear distance between itself and actual Jews, so it is safer to suppose that these people were anti-Christians.

Toto

Inspector, for the purposes of this discussion, people who call themselves Christians and are members of a Christian church are referred to as -- Christians. If you want to make some sort of fine distinction between real Christians (I assume that is you and a few close friends) and the pretend or fake Christians, please take it to another forum.

Clouseau

Who defines a Christian?

Some people do that. Whose side they are on is a matter for debate.

I would. Even on the internet.

douglas

What do you make of this?

Josephus is saying that Jews believed that, according to scripture, a Davidic ruler would come to rule the land and they incited a war to bring this about. However, Josephus thinks they mis-interpreted the scripture. The "king" prophesied was actually Vespasian. (By the way, I don't know which "sacred scripture" Josephus is refering to)

Even though it does not mention Jesus specifically, it does imply that it was the expectation of a messiah that fueled the destruction of Jerusalem. Also, can you read this passage from Josephus as evidence that Jesus did not exists, because you would think if he was going to mention Jesus's name, he would have done it here?

Anyway, I've always found this passage from Josephus puzzling and would appreciate any advice on how to read it.

Thanks for the book reference! I'm going to add Steve Mason's book to my reading list.

No Robots

Jewish Messianic fervour was quite familiar to the Romans of the time:

In most [Jews] there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.—Tacitus, Hist. 5,13.

There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world.—Suetonius, Vesp., 4.

Ben C Smith

Which scriptural oracle Josephus is referring to is a matter of debate. The two most viable candidates, IMVHO, are Daniel 9.24-27 (the seventy weeks, some calculations of which can lead to circa 70) and Numbers 24.17 (the star prophecy; this one would depend on reading the scripture in terms of the star that appeared over Jerusalem, for which refer to Wars 6.5.3 §288-299).

Ben.