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Old 06-25-2006, 07:51 AM   #11
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Thanks Andrew. I forgot about Irenaeus.
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Old 06-26-2006, 01:46 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnosis92
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

im curious as to what scholarship has suggested this passage might mean, for example
1- was paul talking about himself?
2- was paul talking about perhaps proto-gnostics?
3- was paul talking about "john" who wrote the book of revelation?
4- was paul talking about Doubting Thomas and the gospel of Thomas?
5- it sounds like strong evidence for the MJ position - early christians like Paul met a purely heavenly Christ?
6-could be evidence against MJ position, as in this instance Paul speaks of a heavenly christ, he clearly prefaces it with "i cannot tell if this happened in teh body or in heaven", where he makes no such distinctions in what doherty calls the human-sounding passages.
7- was he either praising or denigrating the superapostles? is he using this to claim some sort of authority for himself?

how does this statement fit in with the rest of 2 Corintians? what was he trying to suggest or prove?

the time fram, if this statement is accurate is facinating. if 2 Corinthians was written around 50-60 years ad, 50-14=36AD

then paul is speaking of a man in christ taken up to heaven around 36AD, if, given the HJ was crucified around 30AD he may be speaking of a christian around 36ADor just 6 years after the cruxifixition. apparently when he was writing the letter in 50 AD, he said "i knew a man in christ 14 years ago..." this man may have been a xtian for the past 14 years, assuming he was an xtian at the time paul wrote the letter.

It's clear from the context that Paul is speaking about himself, and is refering to himself in the third person for rhetorical effect.

His whole point here is the defense of his ministry against his detractors. He's using the classical rhetorical trope of "not to mention," whereby he says he won't boast and then goes on to list all the things he could boast about, but doesn't, thereby making his point. In 2 Cor 12 1 he states there's no point in boasting, and then goes on to talk about the "man" who had this vision, and concludes, "I ill boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself."

It's a rhetorical device whereby he gets to bring up the things he wants to boast about (his vision) while pretending he's not boasting.

Note that in 12:7 he makes it absolutely clear that he's talking about himself when he discusses the "thorn in his side," problem, which he claims was to prevent him from getting too "elated" (whatever that means, arrogant, perhaps?) about the abundance of revelations he was given.

2 Corinthians 12:7 - And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.

As to its gnostic elements, I see nothing particularly gnostic about the passage, or at least nothing that isn't consistent with orthodox Christian theology. Further this passage accords with Paul's claim at other points that he had direct revelations from the risen Christ, as well as several references in Acts to his vision.

Galatians 1:12 - For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:2 - I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

Ephesians 3:3 - how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
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