gnosis92

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

im curious as to what scholarship has suggested this passage might mean, for example
1- was paul talking about himself?
2- was paul talking about perhaps proto-gnostics?
3- was paul talking about "john" who wrote the book of revelation?
4- was paul talking about Doubting Thomas and the gospel of Thomas?
5- it sounds like strong evidence for the MJ position - early christians like Paul met a purely heavenly Christ?
6-could be evidence against MJ position, as in this instance Paul speaks of a heavenly christ, he clearly prefaces it with "i cannot tell if this happened in teh body or in heaven", where he makes no such distinctions in what doherty calls the human-sounding passages.
7- was he either praising or denigrating the superapostles? is he using this to claim some sort of authority for himself?

how does this statement fit in with the rest of 2 Corintians? what was he trying to suggest or prove?

the time fram, if this statement is accurate is facinating. if 2 Corinthians was written around 50-60 years ad, 50-14=36AD

then paul is speaking of a man in christ taken up to heaven around 36AD, if, given the HJ was crucified around 30AD he may be speaking of a christian around 36ADor just 6 years after the cruxifixition. apparently when he was writing the letter in 50 AD, he said "i knew a man in christ 14 years ago..." this man may have been a xtian for the past 14 years, assuming he was an xtian at the time paul wrote the letter.

S.C.Carlson

Most scholarship I'm aware of tends to go with #1. (There's not a lot of scholarship that addresses the MJ position.)

gnosis92

if so, valentinus and marcion and the gnostic claims which trace their lineage to paul, as a gnostic, seems credible. so paul has been a christian for 14 years, a mere 6 years after jesus' death? paul and jews were perscuting christians as early as 36AD? if so an earlier dating of john becomes possible (usually dated after counsel of jamnia 90AD)

triffidfood

The Apocalypse of Paul (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/ascp.html) is interesting to read in this context, it takes the idea of Pauls 'ascension' and embellishes it with descriptions of 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th heavens .. in the 4th heaven, Paul sees someone who'd been taken up from the earth, being whipped by angels for committing murder (I think?), and then returned back down to earth to be reincarnated .. I'm not sure how Xians today try to explain this (that is, try to explain the 2 Cor. use of such an obviously 'gnostic' term as "third heaven", and the ideas implied by this)?

andrewcriddle

Ih genuinely Gnostic thought one tends to have something like seven heavens with God himself in the seventh.

In 2 Corinthians it seems likely that the 3rd heaven is the highest heaven where God is. (IMHO the 1st heaven here is the atmosphere and the 2nd heaven the stars and planets.)

Andrew Criddle

gnosis92

the gospel of thomas makes no mention of this

andrewcriddle

A/ There is little about any sort of plural heavens in Thomas (the only example I can think of is saying 11 "This heaven shall pass away and the one above it shall pass away" )

B/ It is controversial whether or not Thomas is a genuinely Gnostic work.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

But wouldn't Paul have to be credible first. After reading the Christian Bible, I find Paul's so called conversion is not credible. Now Paul's conversion is the most important basis of his writings, and if his conversion is doubtful, then credibilty appears to be fabricated.

And by the way, isn't the death of Jesus doubtful and also the year of death? And if Paul does not know who he is talking about, how will we be able to determine that 2000 years later?

dog-on

Can anyone point out a reference to the Pauline epistles, prior to Tertullian's - Against Marcion?

andrewcriddle

Irenaeus writing c 185 CE in "Against Heresies" refers explicitly to the Pauline Epistles on a number of occasions.

There are also the references in 1 Clement, Polycarp to the Philippians and Ignatius which are usually dated in the very early 2nd century or very late 1st.

Andrew Criddle