Chicle-Treat

If Jesus was sinless, why does he tell a "little white lie" to his brothers?

I've never had anyone I've spoken with address this directly. I've gotten responses ranging from the "Nuh-uh! It doesn't say that!" to the, to me, very disheartening "Jesus is God. He can do that kind of thing and still be sinless." Granted, the latter response is rare.

Checking on www.biblegateway.com, I notice that the translations all show a similar theme.

1. Jesus' brothers ask him if he's going to the Feast.
2. Jesus says no, because he knows he's going to die, but he doesn't want to die at the feast because he feels it isn't the "right time" to die.
3. He lies to his brothers because he then goes up to the feast, not openly, but in private.

Brushing aside the verses where the JEWS are constantly wanting to kill the guy or doing naughty things (anti-semitism in John is in many other threads, I'm sure), he tells his brothers he's not going, yet he goes, and he's purposefully avoiding them. Now, I'm not the most critical of thinkers, but to me, this is deception. And as such, is this not a violation of one of the commandments? Something about not bearing false witness? Also, footnotes in the KJV, NIV, and NRSV say that the word "yet" in the previous passage does not appear in early manuscripts.

How does one draw a "figurative" interpretation of this? Is it an example of how "little white lies" are good if you don't want to be killed? It seems quite plain to me that this is not a figurative telling.

So, why does Jesus lie?

Amos

Short answer: The test of a mystic is how well he can keep it a secret, and for Jesus it gets even worse because he must not go as a Jew but as "he who send me" or he would not be able to speak without "self-glorification."

So the little white lie is not a lie because Jesus did not go as a famous Jew to show them "the works he was performing" (verse 3 -- which is what his brothers had in mind for him to do), but Jesus secretly went there to be a witness to the father and that is exactly what he did.

Doctor X

Good question. This is not the only "difficult" passage in the NT attributed to Junior.

One can approach it first from two extremes:

Fundamentalist "You just do not understand it, scum!"

Jesus Sucks "See?!! I proves he was a liar!!"

Leaving those aside the question is why would a writer(s) include such?

The Synoptics and Jn have one thing certainly in common--the disciples are idiots. I tend to look at is as an "us versus them" situation in which whatever groups they wrote for were against the "in" group or "traditional" group probably represented by whatever was left of the Jerusalem group--even the simple persistence of their doctrine. If you believe scholars who see the Jerusalem group as rather "secular" in that the historical Junior was considered a man, this makes sense--the targeted groups of the gospels would consider this ridiculous.

However, there are "nasty" traditions that, perhaps, the writers had to address. On this board we have been all over the place on whether or not the historical Junior was crucified or even executed. Nevertheless, why did the writers feel the need to engage in mythmaking regarding it? Perhaps, then, a tradition of him being cryptic if not outright duplicitous existed.

Returning above, it could also be an indication that whatever groups the target audience are against just were not "really" in the "in" group. Jn does this with his "born from above" admonistion--unless you are predetermined and, in a sense, already saved, you cannot be saved. Of course, Jn's audience is "born from above" and those clowns over there, despite the chariots with the cruise control, are not.

--J.D.

Amos

But there is nothing difficult about the passage because a very clear explanation is given as to why Jesus did not go upon the request of his brothers (which was to impress the mob).

The disciples must come across as idiots because they represent the drag (negative stand) needed to do a 180 from religious indoctrination to Galilean discovery.

Doctor X

"Yes, somehow a conversation with you, Baldrick, and death loses its sting."

"Money," Blackadder II

--J.D.

Toto

Can you show that there is any prohibition in the Bible against social lies? I don't think so. "Bearing false witness" refers to legal procedings or accusations of crimes, not trickery or misdirection in social situations.

Moving around the crowds in disguise was something that the Greek gods did on occasion. Odysseus also checked out situations in disguise. They did perhaps this because they were not omniscient and needed to gather unbiased data on what was actually happening, and also to test mortals to see how they acted when no gods/heros were obviously in front of them. Why would Jesus want to do this? That's the real question. There is some human drama unfolding - does Jesus need to test the waters to see if they are ready to boil?

And what does this mean, from John 7:13: But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the Jews. Who exactly were at this festival except Jews? Should this really be translated "Jewish authorities"?

Conclusion: simple lying is not a sin according to Christians or Jews or the Hellenistic culture of the time.

Amos

This shows the unwavering determination of Jesus to succeeed in his mission which was the exposition of the inner man (the father)during the early desert period. The feast of Booths is typically a harvest festival that is reminiscant of their ancestors' early days in the desert and John wants to show us how and why they went wrong in John 6.

There were religious Jews at the festival and also hyper religious born again Jews and these were the ones to be afraid of.

JoeWallack

Chicle-Treat:
"If Jesus was sinless, why does he tell a "little white lie" to his brothers?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NIV)John 7

Jesus Goes to the Feast of Tabernacles

1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. 8You go to the Feast. I am not yet[1] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." 9Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.
10However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've never had anyone I've spoken with address this directly. I've gotten responses ranging from the "Nuh-uh! It doesn't say that!" to the, to me, very disheartening "Jesus is God. He can do that kind of thing and still be sinless." Granted, the latter response is rare.

Checking on www.biblegateway.com, I notice that the translations all show a similar theme.

1. Jesus' brothers ask him if he's going to the Feast.
2. Jesus says no, because he knows he's going to die, but he doesn't want to die at the feast because he feels it isn't the "right time" to die.
3. He lies to his brothers because he then goes up to the feast, not openly, but in private.

Brushing aside the verses where the JEWS are constantly wanting to kill the guy or doing naughty things (anti-semitism in John is in many other threads, I'm sure), he tells his brothers he's not going, yet he goes, and he's purposefully avoiding them. Now, I'm not the most critical of thinkers, but to me, this is deception. And as such, is this not a violation of one of the commandments? Something about not bearing false witness? Also, footnotes in the KJV, NIV, and NRSV say that the word "yet" in the previous passage does not appear in early manuscripts.

How does one draw a "figurative" interpretation of this? Is it an example of how "little white lies" are good if you don't want to be killed? It seems quite plain to me that this is not a figurative telling.

So, why does Jesus lie?"


JW:
In order to prove that your quote above demonstrates an error in the Christian Bible I think you need to consider in detail whether 7:8:

"You go to the Feast. I am not yet[1] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come."

provides a defense against error. The textual evidence is divided as to whether "yet" is original (my guess is it is not and has been inserted to defend against your claimed error). While I wouldn't criticize anyone for claiming an error here in my opinion there isn't an error because "yet" qualifies the statement that Jesus wasn't going to the Festival. What follows 7:8 seems to be compatible with Jesus' statement that he wasn't going "yet" or with the disciples to the Festival beginning. Jesus goes to the Festival after the disciples do and doesn't start teaching in public there until the middle of the Festival.


Joseph

FEAST, n.
A festival. A religious celebration usually signalized by gluttony and drunkenness, frequently in honor of some holy person distinguished for abstemiousness. In the Roman Catholic Church feasts are "movable" and "immovable," but the celebrants are uniformly immovable until they are full. In their earliest development these entertainments took the form of feasts for the dead; such were held by the Greeks, under the name Nemeseia, by the Aztecs and Peruvians, as in modern times they are popular with the Chinese; though it is believed that the ancient dead, like the modern, were light eaters. Among the many feasts of the Romans was the Novemdiale, which was held, according to Livy, whenever stones fell from heaven.

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B. H. Manners

Yeah, but now your stuck with a Bible that has been changed and edited.

Magus55

I don't see how Jesus was lying. He said to the discples that He would not yet be going to the feast with them. He never said He wouldn't be going at all.