Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 05-11-2007, 02:15 PM

How many of the sayings that are found in the Synoptic Gospels had a life of their own before they were written down? (Whether that life included "Jesus said" or not.)

Feel free to justify, or not to justify, your answer in the thread.

windsofchange · 05-11-2007, 02:25 PM

I voted for "0-100" because I don't think there's any way to know for sure. And also because I like cats.

Malachi151 · 05-11-2007, 02:56 PM

I had to vote for 1-33%, even though I think its 1%, due to the eucharist ritual that come from Paul.

Peter Kirby · 05-11-2007, 04:34 PM

Not wanting to make up something to explain for myself how you conclude such, may I ask...was there a method by which you reached this conclusion? If so, can you describe it? Thanks.

Malachi151 · 05-11-2007, 06:57 PM

Evidence. That, of course, is the only saying that we have reasonable evidence existed before the synoptics.

Having said that, there are indeed other sayings that preceded the synoptics, though I'm not thinking of any that were attributed to Jesus, only ones that are from other known sources "eye for an eye", etc.

Q of course has the most potential of being some kind of pre-synoptic sayings, and that may be, but of course there is no evidence for it.

I suspect, based purely on a hunch, that the Q material, as well as GThomas, comes from the teachings of "James the Just" ABOUT Christ.

Peter Kirby · 05-11-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Evidence.

This reminds me of Ayn Rand, who defined her epistemology as "Reason." Okay, can we, like, look into this a bit more, critically?

Malachi151 · 05-11-2007, 07:37 PM

Well, would you agree that the eucharist ritual from Paul is the only saying that we have clear evidence for existing prior to the Gospels or not?

Peter Kirby · 05-11-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, would you agree that the eucharist ritual from Paul is the only saying that we have clear evidence for existing prior to the Gospels or not?

Is this about me or about you? I mean, we can start talking about what I think, but that would be a change of subject. I thought it was about you, and your method, if any. Do you have a method? That was my original question, to which I got the opaque reply, "Evidence."

Peter Kirby · 05-12-2007, 08:43 PM

I was hoping for a mite bit more activity in this thread. Not as much as in a direct frontal shot on "the existence of Jesus," but at least something from more of the serious hitters in this forum.

Peter Kirby · 05-14-2007, 11:25 AM

If the consensus by way of silence speaks to the irrelevance of this question, why is it considered irrelevant to us and our concerns?

View Poll Results: How many of the sayings preceded the Synoptics?
0% -- No more than the dialogue in a Michael Crichton book.	0	0%
1-33% -- Eh, a little bit.	1	12.50%
34-66% -- Meh, quite a bit.	3	37.50%
67-100% -- Yeah, a whole lot!	0	0%
0-100% -- Now where is that damn cat Schrodinger had...	4	50.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

05-11-2007, 02:15 PM	#1
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	How many of the sayings preceded the Synoptics? How many of the sayings that are found in the Synoptic Gospels had a life of their own before they were written down? (Whether that life included "Jesus said" or not.) Feel free to justify, or not to justify, your answer in the thread.

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05-11-2007, 02:25 PM	#2
windsofchange Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The achingly beautiful San Fernando Valley Posts: 2,206	I voted for "0-100" because I don't think there's any way to know for sure. And also because I like cats.

05-11-2007, 02:56 PM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I had to vote for 1-33%, even though I think its 1%, due to the eucharist ritual that come from Paul.

05-11-2007, 04:34 PM	#4
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Not wanting to make up something to explain for myself how you conclude such, may I ask...was there a method by which you reached this conclusion? If so, can you describe it? Thanks.

05-11-2007, 06:57 PM	#5
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Evidence. That, of course, is the only saying that we have reasonable evidence existed before the synoptics. Having said that, there are indeed other sayings that preceded the synoptics, though I'm not thinking of any that were attributed to Jesus, only ones that are from other known sources "eye for an eye", etc. Q of course has the most potential of being some kind of pre-synoptic sayings, and that may be, but of course there is no evidence for it. I suspect, based purely on a hunch, that the Q material, as well as GThomas, comes from the teachings of "James the Just" ABOUT Christ.

05-11-2007, 07:37 PM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Well, would you agree that the eucharist ritual from Paul is the only saying that we have clear evidence for existing prior to the Gospels or not?

05-12-2007, 08:43 PM	#9
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I was hoping for a mite bit more activity in this thread. Not as much as in a direct frontal shot on "the existence of Jesus," but at least something from more of the serious hitters in this forum.

05-14-2007, 11:25 AM	#10
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	If the consensus by way of silence speaks to the irrelevance of this question, why is it considered irrelevant to us and our concerns?

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