Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 06-22-2012, 05:38 AM

Hi All,

We often speak about Zombie Jesus who returned from the dead. However, we should also keep in mind that besides being a Zombie, the Jesus of the New Testament is also a Vampire. This comes out most clearly in the Gospel of John:

Quote:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."" (John 6:51-58).

Of cause the modern vampire generally gets eternal life by drinking the blood of his victims. In this scenario, Jesus is offering eternal life by telling his followers to drink his blood. He appears to be a reverse vampire. Indeed, the motif seems closely related the Dionysus cult where drinking the blood of Dionysus - wine and becoming intoxicated in the God. More likely this is a reference to the concept of Jesus being the word of God. Blood and Flesh are words like Jesus. Eat and drink his words and you'll live eternally.

The concept of drinking blood for eternal life gets developed in later vampire stories, and who drinks whose blood is relatively unimportant. For example, in Captain Kronos (Clemens, 1973). the main vampire forces his victim to drink his own blood. This confers eternal life on the victim. However the vampire quickly drains the blood and apparently gives it to his dead lover, whom he is trying to bring back from the dead.

Going back to the question of the historical Jesus, we might consider that Jesus is similar to Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln is a well known historical character and he certainly fought and overcame the hoard of Southern slave-owners who were in a sense sucking the life out of their poor slave victims. This might lead one to believe that Jesus also was an historical character whose life was analogized into a Son of God scenario and later turned into a vampire. This is possible, but not necessary.

If we look at the most famous vampire hunters in fiction, we see that this is not necessarily so. The character of Abraham Van Helsing in Bram Stoker's "Dracula" seems to have been based on Ármin Vámbéry who was born Hermann Bamberger (or Wamberger) in 1832. Vámbéry was a Jewish-Hungarian "Orientalist" and linguist. Wikipedia notes:

Quote:

Vámbéry knew Bram Stoker and is believed by some biographers to have acted as his consultant on Transylvanian culture. The character of Professor Van Helsing in Stoker's novel, Dracula, is sometimes said to be based on Vámbéry, though there is no real evidence of this supposition. In the novel (chapter 23) the professor refers to his "friend Arminius, of Buda-Pesth University".[citation needed]

There is a vampire hunter character in the webcomic Sluggy Freelance named Arminius Vambrey possibly based on this Armin Vambery and his candidacy as inspiration for Abraham Van Helsing.[citation needed]

His son, Rusztem Vambery, briefly served as Hungary's ambassador to the United States after World War II.

Van Helsing, the vampire hunter is generally a minor character in Dracula movies. He mostly gives information on the history of the vampire and tells the hero how to fight and kill the vampire. In this sense, he plays the educational-teacher role that Vambrey played for Stoker.

In Roman Polanski's "The Fearless Vampire Killers" (Polanski, 1967), we see a shift of focus from the vampire to the vampire hunters. Jack Macgowan plays Professor Abronsius and Polanski himself plays Alfred, his student. This comical movie really focuses on the vampire hunters, perhaps for the first time.

The Night Stalker (Moxey, 1971) focused on a modern day reporter, Carl Kolchak as the vampire hunter. It led to the television series Kolchak: The Night Stalker in 1974. It was written/created by Dan Curtis who also created the "Dark Shadows" television series. It is important to note that Kolchak is more in the mold of detective/reporter heroes. He has no unusual knowledge of vampires. He has to gather information on the subject. This movie separates the vampire hunter from Academia.

Captain Kronos: Vampire Hunter (Clemens, 1973) is critical in the history of vampire hunting. Here vampire hunting is a profession. Kronos, a character created by Brian Clemens who also created the British 1960's spy series "The Avengers," goes around chasing vampires because his wife and mother was apparently killed by a nest of them. This movie was supposed to be the beginning of a series, but unfortunately, it was poorly distributed and was a one-off. Captain Kronos (Horst Janson)reminds one a bit of "The Man with No Name" character played by Clint Eastwood in the Spaghetti Westerns made by Sergio Leone in the 1960's. He smokes a cigar like Eastwood. However, Kronos seems more interested in sex and women than the Eastwood character.

In "Van Helsing" (Sommers, 2004) Hugh Jackman plays the vampire hunter Gabriel Van Helsing as a comic book superheroe type.

In looking at the fictional history of vampire hunters over the last 115 years, we see the numerous permutations of the character, his name and position in the story. Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter can be seen as just one more permutation. Without the popularity of earlier fictional vampire hunters, one cannot see why any one would have made Lincoln into a vampire hunter.

In the same way, Vampire Jesus can be seen as just one more permutation of the fictional Jesus character, not necessarily based on any one historical person or name or incident, but part of a chain of evolving references.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Adam · 06-22-2012, 11:40 AM

So Mountainman is wrong? The gospels don't go back to the 4th Century but to the 19th?

PhilosopherJay · 06-22-2012, 12:23 PM

Hi Adam,

No, Adam, the post was not meant to imply any date for the gospels.

Obviously Vampire Jesus developed out of ancient vampire myths.

For example we have Mesopotamian/Hebrew vampires. (from Wikipedia: Vampire folklore by region):

Quote:

Mesopotamia was an area rampant with superstition of blood-drinking demons. The Persians were one of the first civilizations thought to have tales of blood-drinking demons: creatures attempting to drink blood from men were depicted on excavated pottery shards.[5] Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu,[7] synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith (Hebrew לילית) and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. However, the Jewish counterparts were said to feast on both men and women, as well as newborns.[7] The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve.[8][9] In these texts, Lilith left Adam to become the queen of the demons (she actually refused to be Adam's subordinate and thus was banished from Eden by God himself) and, much like the Greek striges, would prey on young babies and their mothers at night, as well as males. Because Hebrew law absolutely forbade the eating of human flesh or the drinking of any type of blood, Lilith's blood drinking was described as exceptionally evil. To ward off attacks from Lilith, parents used to hang amulets from their child's cradle

and we have the ancient Greco-Roman Vampires (from Wikipedia)

Quote:

Ancient Greek mythology contains several precursors to modern vampires, though none were considered undead; these included the Empusa,[16] Lamia,[17] and striges (the strix of Ancient Roman mythology). Over time the first two terms became general words to describe witches and demons respectively. Empusa was the daughter of the goddess Hecate and was described as a demonic, bronze-footed creature. She feasted on blood by transforming into a young woman and seduced men as they slept before drinking their blood.[16] Lamia was the daughter of King Belus and a secret lover of Zeus. However Zeus' wife Hera discovered this infidelity and killed all Lamia's offspring; Lamia swore vengeance and preyed on young children in their beds at night, sucking their blood.[17] Like Lamia, the striges, feasted on children, but also preyed on young men. They were described as having the bodies of crows or birds in general, and were later incorporated into Roman mythology as strix, a kind of nocturnal bird that fed on human flesh and blood.[18] The Romanian vampire breed named Strigoï has no direct relation to the Greek striges, but was derived from the Roman term strix, as is the name of the Albanian Shtriga and the Slavic Strzyga, though myths about these creatures are more similar to their Slavic equivalents.[6][19] Greek vampiric entities are seen once again in Homer's epic Odyssey. In Homer's tale, the undead are too insubstantial to be heard by the living and cannot communicate with them without drinking blood first. In the epic, when Odysseus journeyed into Hades, he was made to sacrifice a black ram and a black ewe so that the shades there could drink its blood and communicate

The development of Vampire Jesus obviously happened in ancient times between the 1st and 4th century. By looking at the development of vampire hunters in the 20th and 21st centuries, we see how a nonexistent job position can be associated with historical or fictional figures in diverse ways. In any text, a vampire or vampire hunter may be based in some way on some aspect of an historical personage or not. This does not make the vampire or vampire hunter an historical person. Captain Kronos: Vampire Hunter is a fictional character based in part on "The Man with No Name" from Sergio Leone's Spaghetti Westerns. Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter is also a fictional character, although he is based in part on Abraham Lincoln an historical person.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

So Mountainman is wrong? The gospels don't go back to the 4th Century but to the 19th?

Tom Sawyer · 06-22-2012, 12:48 PM

I don't know about this theory. If Jesus was a vampire and the Romans tied him to a cross so that he'd be incinerated by the sunlight, how is it that he came back to life afterwards? That shit's game over for a vamp.

PhilosopherJay · 06-22-2012, 03:33 PM

Hi Tom,

You seem to be unaware of the diversity of vampires and their abilities. To quote from Captain Kronos: Vampire Hunter:

Quote:

Hieronymous Grost: You see, doctor, there are as many species of vampire as there are beasts of prey. Their methods and their motive for attack can vary in a hundred different ways.
Captain Kronos: As are the methods of their destruction!

In "Daughter's of Darkness" (Kumel, 1971), we even see the vampires in daylight. Although, for some reason, at the end of the movie the lead vampire seems to have grown frightened of the daylight.

Wikipedia notes this in its article on vampire literature:

Quote:

In the novel, the vampire hunter Van Helsing prescribes that a vampire be destroyed by a wooden stake (preferably made of white oak) through the heart, decapitation, drowning, or incineration. The vampire's head must be removed from its body, the mouth stuffed with garlic and holy water or relics, the body drawn and quartered, then burned and spread into the four winds, with the head buried on hallowed ground. The destruction of the vampire Lucy follows the three-part process enjoined by Van Helsing (staking, decapitation, and garlic in the mouth). Traditional vampire folklore, followed by Stoker in Dracula does not usually hold that sunlight is fatal to vampires, though they are nocturnal. It is also notable in the novel that Dracula can walk about in the daylight, in bright sunshine, though apparently in discomfort and without the ability to use most of his powers, like turning into mist or a bat. He is still strong and fast enough to struggle with and escape from most of his male pursuers, in a scene in the book. It is only with the 1922 film Nosferatu that daylight is depicted as deadly to vampires.[9] Such scenes in vampire films, most especially the closing scene of the 1958 Dracula film in which Count Dracula is burnt by the sun was very influential on later vampire fiction. For instance Anne Rice's vampire Lestat and Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Count Saint Germain both avoid the lethal effects of daylight by staying closeted indoors during the day

The powers, rules, habits and meanings of vampires change quite a bit from text to text. This also happens with the Jesus character.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

I don't know about this theory. If Jesus was a vampire and the Romans tied him to a cross so that he'd be incinerated by the sunlight, how is it that he came back to life afterwards? That shit's game over for a vamp.

mountainman · 06-22-2012, 07:23 PM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

If it possible to permit the translation of anthropophagi as vampires instead of "cannibals" then there may be more direct evidence for vampires and vampire hunters in The Acts of Andrew and Matthias (Matthew):

"At that time all the apostles were gathered together
and divided the countries among themselves, casting lots.
And it fell to Matthias to go to the land of the anthropophagi. (cannibals)

Now the men of that city ate no bread nor drank wine,
but ate the flesh and drank the blood of men;
and every stranger who landed there they took, and put out his eyes,
and gave him a magic drink which took away his understanding.

This is getting scary.

Best wishes

Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Adam,

No, Adam, the post was not meant to imply any date for the gospels.

Obviously Vampire Jesus developed out of ancient vampire myths.

For example we have Mesopotamian/Hebrew vampires. (from Wikipedia: Vampire folklore by region):

Quote:

Mesopotamia was an area rampant with superstition of blood-drinking demons. The Persians were one of the first civilizations thought to have tales of blood-drinking demons: creatures attempting to drink blood from men were depicted on excavated pottery shards.[5] Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu,[7] synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith (Hebrew לילית) and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. However, the Jewish counterparts were said to feast on both men and women, as well as newborns.[7] The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve.[8][9] In these texts, Lilith left Adam to become the queen of the demons (she actually refused to be Adam's subordinate and thus was banished from Eden by God himself) and, much like the Greek striges, would prey on young babies and their mothers at night, as well as males. Because Hebrew law absolutely forbade the eating of human flesh or the drinking of any type of blood, Lilith's blood drinking was described as exceptionally evil. To ward off attacks from Lilith, parents used to hang amulets from their child's cradle

and we have the ancient Greco-Roman Vampires (from Wikipedia)

Quote:

Ancient Greek mythology contains several precursors to modern vampires, though none were considered undead; these included the Empusa,[16] Lamia,[17] and striges (the strix of Ancient Roman mythology). Over time the first two terms became general words to describe witches and demons respectively. Empusa was the daughter of the goddess Hecate and was described as a demonic, bronze-footed creature. She feasted on blood by transforming into a young woman and seduced men as they slept before drinking their blood.[16] Lamia was the daughter of King Belus and a secret lover of Zeus. However Zeus' wife Hera discovered this infidelity and killed all Lamia's offspring; Lamia swore vengeance and preyed on young children in their beds at night, sucking their blood.[17] Like Lamia, the striges, feasted on children, but also preyed on young men. They were described as having the bodies of crows or birds in general, and were later incorporated into Roman mythology as strix, a kind of nocturnal bird that fed on human flesh and blood.[18] The Romanian vampire breed named Strigoï has no direct relation to the Greek striges, but was derived from the Roman term strix, as is the name of the Albanian Shtriga and the Slavic Strzyga, though myths about these creatures are more similar to their Slavic equivalents.[6][19] Greek vampiric entities are seen once again in Homer's epic Odyssey. In Homer's tale, the undead are too insubstantial to be heard by the living and cannot communicate with them without drinking blood first. In the epic, when Odysseus journeyed into Hades, he was made to sacrifice a black ram and a black ewe so that the shades there could drink its blood and communicate

The development of Vampire Jesus obviously happened in ancient times between the 1st and 4th century. By looking at the development of vampire hunters in the 20th and 21st centuries, we see how a nonexistent job position can be associated with historical or fictional figures in diverse ways. In any text, a vampire or vampire hunter may be based in some way on some aspect of an historical personage or not. This does not make the vampire or vampire hunter an historical person. Captain Kronos: Vampire Hunter is a fictional character based in part on "The Man with No Name" from Sergio Leone's Spaghetti Westerns. Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter is also a fictional character, although he is based in part on Abraham Lincoln an historical person.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

So Mountainman is wrong? The gospels don't go back to the 4th Century but to the 19th?

PhilosopherJay · 06-22-2012, 09:29 PM

Hi Pete,

Nice catch. This is an nteresting connection.

Quote:

Now the men of that city ate no bread nor drank wine,
but ate the flesh and drank the blood of men;

Apparently the anthropophagi substitute flesh and blood for bread and wine, while Christians substitute bread and wine for flesh and blood.

I guess the absurd logic goes something like this: If the anthropophagi instantly kill you, doing the opposite of the anthropophagi will keep you from dying.

The anthropophagi are not vampires perhaps, but they may be thought of as predecessors to vampires in the same family line.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay,

If it possible to permit the translation of anthropophagi as vampires instead of "cannibals" then there may be more direct evidence for vampires and vampire hunters in The Acts of Andrew and Matthias (Matthew):

"At that time all the apostles were gathered together
and divided the countries among themselves, casting lots.
And it fell to Matthias to go to the land of the anthropophagi. (cannibals)

Now the men of that city ate no bread nor drank wine,
but ate the flesh and drank the blood of men;
and every stranger who landed there they took, and put out his eyes,
and gave him a magic drink which took away his understanding.

This is getting scary.

Best wishes

Pete

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06-22-2012, 11:40 AM	#2
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	So Mountainman is wrong? The gospels don't go back to the 4th Century but to the 19th?

06-22-2012, 12:48 PM	#4
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I don't know about this theory. If Jesus was a vampire and the Romans tied him to a cross so that he'd be incinerated by the sunlight, how is it that he came back to life afterwards? That shit's game over for a vamp.

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